Orchestration help please...

[DaWolf]

I`m working on a new song now and it has a slow part with acoustic guitars that leads into some heavier stuff. So I thought about adding some synths - nothing too extreme, just some nice pads for the background that have some build up into the heavy part.
This is my attempt with DSK Virtuoso:
http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1018681/Sauce2.mp3

It`s 4 channels of midi 1-oboe,2-violin,3-cello,4-viola
I`m a midi newb,so I could need advice how I could get a better sound, smooth note transitions etc.
Also some of you might have better instruments at hand, so if someone is bored and likes to play with it,here`s the midi
http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1018681/Sauce3.mid
bpm is 130 but should be with the file.

 

[mrbean667]

I like it, but the mid file doesn't seem to have anything on it, or it could just be my computer...
Could you reupload it so I could try it with Edirol?

 

[Fox Mulder]

Automate the velocities.

 

[Erlend_]

Play with velocities and try riding the Expression command (CC##13 I think it is?)

 

[bodom578]

yeah i'm not getting any midi data either, reupload it and i'll run it through EWQL gold

 

[DaWolf]

Try this one:
http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1018681/Sauce.mid

Somehow Reaper does not export just the selection but also the first part of the song, so it`s empty until around minute 1.14 .

 

[DaWolf]

Play with velocities and try riding the Expression command (CC##13 I think it is?)

I found 2 expression controllers : 11(MSE) and 43(LSB). What`s the difference ?
I`ve drawn a some random wavelike contoller with #11,
This is how it sounds now:
http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1018681/Sauceneu.mp3


I also have updated the 2nd link (in the post above) with a new version of the midi.

 

[Erlend_]

I found 2 expression controllers : 11(MSE) and 43(LSB). What`s the difference ?
I`ve drawn a some random wavelike contoller with #11,
This is how it sounds now:
http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1018681/Sauceneu.mp3


I also have updated the 2nd link (in the post above) with a new version of the midi.

##11 is probably right. How a patch reacts to its use depends on the programming of that particular patch..

On strings I find that it helps to imagine how a player would apply pressure and increase or decrease the speed of his bow. Like when you come towards a climax he would use more pressure and speed so then you can gradually increase the expression value so that the whole thing builds up.
When the dynamics is more stable then you can just ride the values but usually not between very extreme values.. The goal is to create subtle changes in the sound to make it sound more realistic.. No real formula to it.. Use ears and common sense.

For brass or woodwind there is a very basic sounding but very good trick to get more realistic results. If you are playing a sustained note or a legato passage, hold your breath! If you cannot hold your breath throught the passage then a player most likely cannot play it. Yeah, some can do this circular breathing thing and in theory be able to hold a note indefinately, but most players I know cannot do this.
Use the expression command on brass and woodwind too.

Also, the mod wheel command is very often used for the most common patch changes. Try it and see what happens! Or read the documentation of your sample library.

If you wanna learn more about orchestration I highly recommend this book: [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Study-Orchestration-Third-Samuel-Adler/dp/039397572X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246305115&sr=8-1[/ame]

I seem to remember that Gary Garritan has a book available now that deals with midi and orchestration.


Good luck! Wish I did more orchestration but I just dont have it in me these days.

 

[DaWolf]

Great, thanks for the tips. I`ll keep them in mind when I tweak the file.

Still curious how it would sound with a real sample library and not free synths. I can get away with it, because it`s just background but when played solo there is this high digital vibrato noise.

 

[TheDarkProject]

Very quick version done with EWQLSO Silver. I reduced the note lengths by 5% to give a bit more natural flow between the notes, and added a little reverb to fill it out. Not great, but better in some ways than the original. If bodom578 does the same with EWQLSO Gold that would be worth hearing though.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

Very quick version done with EWQLSO Silver. I reduced the note lengths by 5% to give a bit more natural flow between the notes, and added a little reverb to fill it out. Not great, but better in some ways than the original. If bodom578 does the same with EWQLSO Gold that would be worth hearing though.

the strings in the do not have enough release to them (they cut out too soon) which makes them dsound jumpy and this is not deisred for more legato playing, as you want the current note to slide or blen in selllessly with the next one. For the higher more dynamic parst you can layer in a marcatto sound for just those notes that really need to come out as a spearated attack to the string. Other than that it soudns pretty realistic.

 

[TheDarkProject]

the strings in the do not have enough release to them (they cut out too soon)

Yep, that's one of the things that Gold does much better than Silver out of the box. It probably has some faster articulations that would fit this piece better too.

 

[Erlend_]

Dont forget that for your stuff to sound realistic it helps to arrange in a realistic way too.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

Dont forget that for your stuff to sound realistic it helps to arrange in a realistic way too.

yea I have heard Vienna Instruments sound fake due to fake arrangments. Thats why I can't arrange with midi, I use the midi scroll in my DAW pluged into my patch and then play back little bits and pieces to hear how each individual part sounds and how they sound all toghether.

 

[DaWolf]

TheDarkProject, thanks for your version.
The cut out bothers me as well though, also it`s not in 130bpm.
And at the end of the song I have a copy of that part with a final time marker @25bpm so it slows down between the last two markers.
I don`t know if that can be recreated so easily outside of Reaper....

Anyway to give an impression of the song I did a mix of the part with everything (sans vox) in it. But it`s still WIP (drums will be re-recorded) and I just did it quickly on my desktop speakers , so I don`t know how good the balance is.

http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1018681/01.mp3

 

[TheWinterSnow]

I am going to go ahead and give it a shot, I am extremly anal when it comes to orchestra realism.

 

[TheDarkProject]

TheDarkProject, thanks for your version.
The cut out bothers me as well though, also it`s not in 130bpm.
And at the end of the song I have a copy of that part with a final time marker @25bpm so it slows down between the last two markers.
I don`t know if that can be recreated so easily outside of Reaper....

It can easily be recreated, but Reaper didn't export the timing in a form Sonar liked, apparently - Sonar thought it was at 145bpm so that's what I did it at. I've never used Reaper so I have no idea what it's doing to the MIDI on the way out...