Overrated 'Classics': Part III

[CF87]

In Flames sounds like a folky iron maiden with raspy vocals that resemble more black metal than death. I'm not sure how In Flames became a 'death metal' band either. In Flames is progressive metal if anything.

 

[Demilich]

Here you display an ignorance of the difference between "subjectivity" and "relativity." Language is "relative," in the sense that its meaning is not absolutely fixed, but rather determined by its relative position in the structure of a given discourse. It isn't "subjective" in the sense that I would be just as correct to call a blue sky "fuschia" or speed metal "thrash" according to my own whims as the subject.

I believe that in cases such as this, where terms such as "thrash" and "speed" metal have different and by no means less valid meanings to several different subcultural groups, that it is acceptible to term the language in question "subjective." And you're a moron because you're trying to convince us of the credulity of your definition of "thrash" based on the fact that it owes itself to the skateboarding scene of the early 80s. Basically, a "we got it first!" mentality. Metalheads applying the term "thrash" to bands like Slayer, Exodus, and Sodom in the mid 80s doesn't invalidate the origins of the term in the skateboarder punk scene, it simply means that the word has more than one possible use. Try taking a brief look through a dictionary and you may be lucky enough to find an example of a word with more than one meaning. And the fact that you think your meaning is in some way superior to ours because it originater a few years earlier is just laughable.

 

[Laeth MacLaurie]

I believe that in cases such as this, where terms such as "thrash" and "speed" metal have different and by no means less valid meanings to several different subcultural groups, that it is acceptible to term the language in question "subjective."

Not really. There's an established procedure for dealing with disputes involving nomenclature, and that is to give precedence to the original usage.

Try taking a brief look through a dictionary and you may be lucky enough to find an example of a word with more than one meaning.

There's a big difference between vague or common terms that might be applied in many different ways, and specific terms coined for a specific usage. "Oil gauge" is never going to be the same as "vacuum cleaner" and "thrash" will never be "speed metal."

 

[Carcassian]

You'd have to pretty much be deaf not to hear them. But you've shown a remarkable inability to make simple connections in past, so I'm not terribly surprised

What, because I refused to accept that I'm a Jew (given that I'm not)? I was actually hoping you'd expand on your connections just on the off chance that you actually might be right. Jesus guy, I really don't have the inclination to fucking hate you over an argument in a fucking message board, especially an old argument re-hashed.

1993, it was crap then, and still is now.

I asked because the year you hear an album can colour your opinion of it. I was a big Megadeth fan at the time of release, and bought it on tape at the time of release; hence I'm cognisent of the fact that my opinion may be coloured by nostalgia. Nether the less, I found your comments on the production interesting, even if they do not concur with my own opinion. I don't think you're an asshole for having a contrary opinion to mine.



Megadeth wasn't and isn't thrash, so what does, "thrash" hate have to do with anything?

Genre definitions, especially used to discuss such a sparsely defined sub-genre as speed metal is self defeating, and bound to produce a flame war.

P.S. Feel free to respond, if any of your black shirt friends ask, I'll be sure to tell them you didn't enter into discourse with a Jew lover.

 

[skeptik]

You didn't even address the issue that I brought up of the interchangeability of terms that lasted throughout the 80's, beginning, in fact, in the early 80's. The bands themselves of the "Bay Area" and German bands already dubbed themselves Thrash Metal as often as they did Power Metal, Speed Metal, and Black Metal. All of these terms were interchangeable in the 80's. They had no set meaning. I don't know why you cite bands like Cryptic Slaughter, DRI and their ilk who came after your supposed Speed Metal bands already dubbed themselves Thrash Metal.

 

[Carcassian]

You didn't even address the issue that I brought up of the interchangeability of terms that lasted throughout the 80's, beginning, in fact, in the early 80's. The bands themselves of the "Bay Area" and German bands already dubbed themselves Thrash Metal as often as they did Power Metal, Speed Metal, and Black Metal. All of these terms were interchangeable in the 80's. They had no set meaning. I don't know why you cite bands like Cryptic Slaughter, DRI and their ilk who came after your supposed Speed Metal bands already dubbed themselves Thrash Metal.

...because he's a historical revisionist who wishes he was old enough to hear the music when it was first created ?

 

[Demilich]

Not really. There's an established procedure for dealing with disputes involving nomenclature, and that is to give precedence to the original usage.

I guess I just take exception to your reference to some kind of established procedure. Frankly, I don't care. To me, language is very personal, and the term "thrash" could very well have several completely different meanings, all relating to musical genre, as well as several completely distinct meanings outside of the musical spectrum. It's a difference of opinion, and your vagaries are not going to convince me that you are anything but a narrowminded trolling lackwit.

There's a big difference between vague or common terms that might be applied in many different ways, and specific terms coined for a specific usage. "Oil gauge" is never going to be the same as "vacuum cleaner" and "thrash" will never be "speed metal."

"Thrash" will probably never be the same as "tin can" either, yet if some group chose to pursue that avenue, how would it be any less valid to them than your definition is to you? Your example is completely meaningless, and once again you're a fool who's out of your element.

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

this thread's hilarious

laeth, how old are you? my prediction is less than 22 years old

 

[skeptik]

He's 26.

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

He's still a pompous little twit.

 

[Birkenau]

mark why don't you go back to Royal Carnage where you can have you little groupthink sessions instead of harassing everyone on this forum you viking wannabe dickhead.

 

[The Subjugator]

No one said he wasn't.

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

mark why don't you go back to Royal Carnage where you can have you little groupthink sessions instead of harassing everyone on this forum you viking wannabe dickhead.

let me think about it

no

though it's pretty fucking funny that you think i'd take you seriously

 

[Birkenau]

It's funny how you think you're better than everyone on this forum yet you're one of the worst posters.

It's funny how you think you're an internet cop and want me off the forums you post at cause I hurt your feelings.

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

I don't think I'm better than you, I know I am. There's a huge difference you know.

Internet cop

That's nearly as funny as you thinking you've hurt my feelings. Are you coming up with this stuff on your own, or is someone helping you with the material? Because it's not half-bad.

 

[Reign in Acai]

This Laeth Mcflurry guy makes birkendon't sound intelligent. Megadeth not thrash? What kind of ganja are you smoking? Clueless!!! That comment was almost as asinine as the visual I seen a couple months back of an african american chap wearing a Burzum shirt. Where the hell do these people come from I wonder?

 

[MetalAges]

Chill out guys.

 

[Laeth MacLaurie]

You didn't even address the issue that I brought up of the interchangeability of terms that lasted throughout the 80's, beginning, in fact, in the early 80's.

And "grindcore" and "death metal" were also used as if they were synonyms...that doesn't make it so.

The bands themselves of the "Bay Area" and German bands already dubbed themselves Thrash Metal as often as they did Power Metal, Speed Metal, and Black Metal.

Which shows how confused the scene was about its identity, and how it was groping about for a marketable term.

I don't know why you cite bands like Cryptic Slaughter, DRI and their ilk who came after your supposed Speed Metal bands already dubbed themselves Thrash Metal.

WRONG!

D.R.I.-

Formed: 1981
First Release: 1983 (though they had established a major presence and following by '82)

C.O.C.-

Formed: 1982
First Release: 1983

Cryptic Slaughter-

Formed: 1984
First Release: 1984

The term "thrash metal" didn't become current until 1985. Try again.

 

[Laeth MacLaurie]

I guess I just take exception to your reference to some kind of established procedure. Frankly, I don't care. To me, language is very personal, and the term "thrash" could very well have several completely different meanings, all relating to musical genre, as well as several completely distinct meanings outside of the musical spectrum.

If we're all going to make it up as we go along with no reference to any agreed upon meaning, there's no point in having language at all.

"Thrash" will probably never be the same as "tin can" either, yet if some group chose to pursue that avenue, how would it be any less valid to them than your definition is to you?

A wonderful theory in a vauum, but we exist in a shared world where communication becomes impossible if a shared understanding of basic meaning is jettisoned. When you allow new usages to glom onto the meaning of older terms, the communcative property of the language is lost. Technical language (whether dealing with the intricacies of medicine or of music) necessarily requires precision, or discourse cannot take place.

In this case, there's not a great deal of practical signifcance, because we're all close enough to the divide (temporally and culturally) to cross over and make sense of the discourse. However, as time passes, allowing speed metal to continue to be grouped under the "thrash" moniker will make recovering the actual history and nature of both genres difficult (as it obscures their actual origins).

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

What's a "vauum?"