P2P TORRENTS AND THE EVIL THEY DO

[MEGALOUD]

I JUST FOUND THIS ON LION MUSIC'S WEBSITE, A COMPANY I'VE WORKED WITH FOR SEVERAL YEARS....I ALSO HEARD LAST WEEK THAT MTM MUSIC in Germany has closed it's doors also, tried to find their website just as I post this and both are not online at present.

THIS ABOUT A WEEK AFTER FINDING THAT "OUR" (NIGHTMARE RECORDS ) NEWEST RELEASES ONLY A MONTH AGO HAVE HAD OVER 500 FREE DOWNLOADS ON JUST ONE TORRENT.

THIS IS INDEED TROUBLING.....PLEASE HELP KEEP THE MUSIC YOU LOVE COMING BY HELPING US TO STOP TORRENT TRADING!


PLEASE READ BELOW....

Dear Musicians,

We are NOT able to sign more artists. No demos or masters you send us will be considered for release. We will NOT listen to any mp3 files or check out your websites and we will NOT respond to questions regarding releasing your album.

The illegal file sharing on the net is killing independent music. We are sorry about this situation but we are sure you are aware of what is going on. Our demo policy will not change before our politicians have stopped the P2P sites. Illegal file sharing is not just about stealing from rich major companies. It is about killing independent music and making it impossible for many great musicians to have a chance to release albums and have a musical career even as a part time job.

Some people seem to think that file sharing does not affect record sales but these people don't know what they are talking about. All musical genres and all kinds of artists are suffering and so will the genuine music fans in the end when the music they love will no longer be available in any guise - free or not. Next time you consider downloading an album for free or adding new torrents please think of the impact you are having on the artists - would you like it if we came into your home and stole your paycheck?

To give you some facts and figures on how this is affecting just some of Lion Music releases please view below - stats taken from just 1 non leading bit torrent site (we are not going to give free advertising to which site it is):

Sun Caged - Artemisia: 2082 illegal downloads and rising

Tears Of Anger - In The Shadows : 1965 illegal downloads and rising

Section A - Parallel Lives : 1926 illegal downloads and rising

Seventh Wonder - Waiting In The Wings : 1672 illegal downloads and rising

Tomorrow's Eve - Mirror Of Creation II The Genesis : 1545 illegal downloads and rising

Mind's Eye - Walking on H20 : 1345 illegal downloads and rising

Sphere Of Souls - ...From The Ashes : 1316 illegal downloads and rising

Seventh Wonder - Become : 922 illegal downloads and rising

Vitalij Kuprij - Glacial Inferno - 898 illegal downloads and rising

Nightscape - Symphony Of The Night : 725 illegal downloads and rising

Moonlight Comedy - Dorothy - 662 illegal downloads and rising

From Behind - Game Over - 588 illegal downloads and rising

Engine Of Pain - I Am Your Enemy - 477 illegal downloads and rising

Venturia - A New Kingdom : 304 illegal downloads and rising

Whilst some of these figures may seem inconsequential, on our tight budgets this is very worrying news for the viability of these bands to surive in the long term.

If these downloads translated into sales (nearly all do not) then you would most likely be seeing these bands more on the live arena, with members not having to work every hour in other jobs to make ends meet. No one is getting rich of this - not the artists or Lion Music staff.

The next time you are about to hit download on the free torrent please take a moment to think of the artist and the consequences of your actions.

Thank you for your time.

The Lion Music Team

 

[rms]

lower prices and ill buy cds, all im sayng before this thread becomes 13 pages long

 

[dcowboys311]

Since this thread is inevitably going to turn into a downloading argument, I guess I'll start.

Torrents have hurt their revenue, but have given the bands more exposure than the best marketing team could have even dreamed for.

Also, those numbers don't take into account people who only downloaded one or two tracks, people who downloaded the torrent multiple times due to computer failures, and other issues. Not saying that excuses the number of downloads, but those numbers are skewed.

On the other hand, independent bands are the ones who need support the most. I'm sure that these illegal downloads have led to free word of mouth advertising, but the best thing a person can do is support the band financially.

 

[Heavenly Call]

Something I've always wondered and I'd like to hear from Lance or Ken or some of the band members...and this has more to do with "leaks" than pure downloads, but it's a branch of the same argument.

You go in to record your CD, someone is in charge of the recordings, likely just one person. So you know who has the files. You master the CD, you know who has the files. You get the mastered CD, you know who you're giving it to to get it duplicated. Why is it so difficult to find the leak?

I guess another way of asking this is to say, why are there copies of CD's out for months and months before this magical "release date" happens? I'm in a band on a MUCH smaller scale than these guys, but I just need an idiot lesson on this.

 

[General Zod]

If MP3 sharing is hurting Metal, than why has its popularity and its record sales grown steadily over the past decade (just look at the SoundScan numbers)?

How is it that bands who previously couldn't afford to play the states, now tour with regularity?

How is it that bands who once wallowed in relative obscurity (Amon Amarth, Dimmu Borgir, Children of Bodeom, Opeth, etc., the list goes on) now headline large clubs here?

The simple fact of the matter is, there's no way to put the genie back in the bottle. MP3 sharing isn't going away. Politicians stopping it? Unlikely. Senator Ted Stevens, who Chaired the United States Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation, who would be the folks to create the legislation Lance is asking for, believes the internet is a "series of tubes". For his full, hilarious explanation on how the internet works, go here. Government moves slowly. Technology moves rapidly. The government will never stop file sharing.

Bands won't go away, the model will simply change. We may see the end of physical media, and we may see the end of record labels, at least in their current incarnation. However, there will be no fewer artists. There will be no fewer kids who want to be rock stars. There will be no fewer MP3s.

Zod

 

[MEGALOUD]

lower prices and ill buy cds, all im sayng before this thread becomes 13 pages long

just so y ou know Nightmare sells our CD's at $6-$7 wholesale to our distribution companies and other companies like Amazon, CDbaby, Century Media and all the others, so only that much is going to the record company
and the artist is making typically $1.10 to 1.40 per CD off of this, since the rest is eaten up in manufacturing the CD's and promoting the CD's with ad's and radio /magazine promotions to get you folks to even hear about a cool new release. There are other folks in the loop, Distribution companies that have the ability to get the CD's out to stores, and others.

So perhaps your saying we should go to an all digital distribution system like itunes or others and sell the music for $6 to $7 there, but then then itunes wants to get their cut 33% off the top and believe me they're on the really generous side of the digital download sites when they're taking their cut, most are taking 50% or more.

So all that money is spend and meager returns at best come in, the only reason musicians and labels like Nightmare continue to do this is because we love the music.

 

[MEGALOUD]

Something I've always wondered and I'd like to hear from Lance or Ken or some of the band members...and this has more to do with "leaks" than pure downloads, but it's a branch of the same argument.

You go in to record your CD, someone is in charge of the recordings, likely just one person. So you know who has the files. You master the CD, you know who has the files. You get the mastered CD, you know who you're giving it to to get it duplicated. Why is it so difficult to find the leak?

I guess another way of asking this is to say, why are there copies of CD's out for months and months before this magical "release date" happens? I'm in a band on a MUCH smaller scale than these guys, but I just need an idiot lesson on this.

Generally speaking it's simply because the band or the bands manager
hasn't been careful with the cd's, and has sent it to someone early that they shouldn't have. you have to send it out to labels obviously quite early, those are the ONLY places early advance copies should be going until promotion for a new release is started at the proper amount of time before a street date for the album.

 

[Cheiron]

Oh sure. It can't have anything to do with Lion Music having a bunch of non marketable bands/projects can it?

Lion Music might be better off if they'd truly promoted the bands they sign, and signed less so they can actually do a few bands well.

Sure they haev a couple good bands/arists (such as John Macaluso & Michael Harris). But a lot of blah stuff comes out of their label.

Music is being bought less. Sure. But little evidence states that downloading is the cause. Also, with fuel prices increasing, foreclosures increasing, DVD sales increasing, video game sales increasing... maybe people are just spending their money elsewhere.

 

[Heavenly Call]

Generally speaking it's simply because the band or the bands manager
hasn't been careful with the cd's, and has sent it to someone early that they shouldn't have. you have to send it out to labels obviously quite early, those are the ONLY places early advance copies should be going until promotion for a new release is started at the proper amount of time before a street date for the album.

Gotcha, thanks.

 

[MEGALOUD]

Zod, Time is something that the bands your mentioning have had, lot's of time building a fan base, but sure for touring this is a positive, probably for bands other
merch items like Shirts etc are better too, because you can't boot those as easily. And your right, the model does have to change, let's have a few brilliant ideas from you and others on how bands can survive in this brave new world.

 

[rms]

just so y ou know Nightmare sells our CD's at $6-$7 wholesale to our distribution companies and other companies like Amazon, CDbaby, Century Media and all the others, so only that much is going to the record company
and the artist is making typically $1.10 to 1.40 per CD off of this, since the rest is eaten up in manufacturing the CD's and promoting the CD's with ad's and radio /magazine promotions to get you folks to even hear about a cool new release. There are other folks in the loop, Distribution companies that have the ability to get the CD's out to stores, and others.

So perhaps your saying we should go to an all digital distribution system like itunes or others and sell the music for $6 to $7 there, but then then itunes wants to get their cut 33% off the top and believe me they're on the really generous side of the digital download sites when they're taking their cut, most are taking 50% or more.

So all that money is spend and meager returns at best come in, the only reason musicians and labels like Nightmare continue to do this is because we love the music.

Why not just sell the cds off your website? Id buy more cds if the general cost was ~10$ but its near 15$ without shipping

 

[Cheiron]

Zod, Time is something that the bands your mentioning have had, lot's of time building a fan base, but sure for touring this is a positive, probably for bands other
merch items like Shirts etc are better too, because you can't boot those as easily. And your right, the model does have to change, let's have a few brilliant ideas from you and others on how bands can survive in this brave new world.

To be good and original? Most bands that are good and original do well at some point or another.

Music and movies are industries where everybody expects to be called a genius after their first album. Take art and even writing. Many of our most revered artists/writers were not really respected until after they were dead. Sure sucks for the artist.

 

[PurpleCrayonWriter]

People can debate the pros and cons of downloads all day long. All year long, in fact. You can conjecture that they help bands by giving them exposure (a very strange argument that twists logic into a pretzel), or you can say they hurt bands by robbing them of money that rightfully belongs to them (a statement as reasonable as it is truthful).

But one fact remains undeniable: It is illegal. Plain and simple. Unauthorized downloading of music for free that artists had to spend thousands of dollars and many months of their time to create is illegal, and it is unethical. No self-respecting music lover should ever do that, for any reason, under any circumstances. Period.

There is no proof that downloading has helped bands. There is ample evidence that it has hurt them. Unfortunately, the only way to stop unscrupulous people from taking what doesn't rightfully belong to them is to give them a pill that magically restores their consciences. Short of that, the practice is liable to continue -- and more bands and labels are likely to suffer because of it.

 

[Angrafan]

lower prices and ill buy cds, all im sayng before this thread becomes 13 pages long

That's the worst argument. It's REALLY hard to make CDs cheaper than they are.. And the independent albums we are talking about all cost less than 15 bucks on metal vendors online...

It's really hard to compete with FREE downloads... the price excuse is really lame.. you can get it for free so you do it...

 

[Yippee38]

But one fact remains undeniable: It is illegal. Plain and simple.

You are right. However, Zod is also right. "The genie is out of the bottle." No amount of legislation will stop music sharing. If any legislation passes, within a month, there will be some other vehicle for sharing files. The other problem with any legislation designed to stop P2P file sharing is that it doesn't just target the illegal files, but the legal files too.

If it were not for downloading song off the internet, I never would have attended a PP, not listened to 99% of the bands I listen to now. Of course, that means that I wouldn't have purchased any of the CDs that I have purchased. It's a double-edged sword, but there's no stopping it, and anybody who thinks that legislation will do it is either exercising wishful thinking, or they are naive.

 

[mëtålspëd]

That's the worst argument. It's REALLY hard to make CDs cheaper than they are.. And the independent albums we are talking about all cost less than 15 bucks on metal vendors online...

It's really hard to compete with FREE downloads... the price excuse is really lame.. you can get it for free so you do it...

Very true. Also, do you think Nightmare Records (just an example) has the same economies of scale as say.... Sony-BMG ?? I gladly pay more for releases from the "small guys", not only because they have the kind of metal I dig, but that also I know its helping to seed the community. Yes, places like Amazon and others have gotten better over the years, but my money will still be spent at the independents.

I may be the exception, more than the norm. Instant gratification is woven into the "ideals" of Americans, and here is one small result. I will not claim to be on the high horse here... I download. Know what? I also buy a TON of records from those downloads. While I can claim that my actions have had a net result of "hurting" the industry technically, I believe I am helping more than harming. I average 100 cds a year purchased. Take that for what its worth.

 

[Metaldrumz]

Well I can only tell you why *I* havent bought many Lion Music releases, and that is because I dont care for them.

I find most to have really bad production, terrible cover art, and nothing that grabs me. Locomotive Breath's latest one was about the only release I purchased from them in recent months.

 

[rms]

That's the worst argument. It's REALLY hard to make CDs cheaper than they are.. And the independent albums we are talking about all cost less than 15 bucks on metal vendors online...

It's really hard to compete with FREE downloads... the price excuse is really lame.. you can get it for free so you do it...

How? Where have you seen the actual cost of a CD vs. the profit? I'd be really interested to see it. I bought 3 CD's @ PPUSA because they were all ~10$, I dont mind under 10 it seems fair, but 15 is ridiculous and I dont agree with it. The businesses should meet customer standards, not other way around.

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

People can debate the pros and cons of downloads all day long. All year long, in fact. You can conjecture that they help bands by giving them exposure (a very strange argument that twists logic into a pretzel), or you can say they hurt bands by robbing them of money that rightfully belongs to them (a statement as reasonable as it is truthful).

But one fact remains undeniable: It is illegal. Plain and simple. Unauthorized downloading of music for free that artists had to spend thousands of dollars and many months of their time to create is illegal, and it is unethical. No self-respecting music lover should ever do that, for any reason, under any circumstances. Period.

There is no proof that downloading has helped bands. There is ample evidence that it has hurt them. Unfortunately, the only way to stop unscrupulous people from taking what doesn't rightfully belong to them is to give them a pill that magically restores their consciences. Short of that, the practice is liable to continue -- and more bands and labels are likely to suffer because of it.

Long time reader of this board (and a bunch others on here), first time poster.



You are so totally wrong dude. Everything that the US judicial system dictates is therefore infallible? The law has NEVER made mistakes before? There are countries (Holland, Sweden, Denmark, France etc) that are legalizing (or at least considering) "illegal" file sharing, so please, don't use this argument again since you are not the king of morals/ethics. (nobody is)

"There is no proof that downloading hurts bands"

Tell that to all the bands who got signed through sharing their music through the internet. Tell that to bands who were previously signed to record labels whose previous catalog is/was out of print. Tell that to the number of fans who download music and then buy merch (which gives more money to the bands) and go to see the bands live- which in turn as Zod said, brings more foreign bands to the US. I highly doubt Swallow The Sun or Insomnium, for example, sell many albums in the US, but that didn't stop them from touring here.

As for Lion music.... How about not signing 100 bands a day and concentrate only a few at a time if you are so worried about funds? Tour support/good marketing will sell much more than signing hundreds of bands per year and hoping one or two makes it big.

 

[PurpleCrayonWriter]

How? Where have you seen the actual cost of a CD vs. the profit? I'd be really interested to see it. I bought 3 CD's @ PPUSA because they were all ~10$, I dont mind under 10 it seems fair, but 15 is ridiculous and I dont agree with it. The businesses should meet customer standards, not other way around.

I'm not sure I follow this logic.

You have set yourself up as the final arbiter, rms. You determine what's "fair" or not. Once those horses have left the barn, there's no putting them back in.

For example, I think it would be "fair" if I owned your car. After all, it's newer than mine. You can afford another one. I can't.

Or, I think it would be "fair" if food costs less in stores -- like free. So why not take it? They can afford to restock the shelves.

Or, I don't think Symphony X put enough time and talent into their latest CD. Therefore, I don't think it should have cost me $15.99. I think they wimped out, took the easy way. I think their latest is only worth about, oh, $6.99.

What you think is fair is irrelevant, rms. Here are three facts to ponder:

1. Unauthorized downloading is illegal. There's no way to justify it. It doesn't matter how many CDs you bought in a year. You broke the law. Period. Plus, it doesn't really matter if you've achieved parity with your downloads vs. purchases. What matters is you've perpetuated a system, alerted those who create such systems that it's worth maintaining. So while you may be at 100% parity (one purchase -- of the same title -- for one download) others may not. There's no way for those who allow illegal downloads to know that what you downloaded ostensibly to listen to, you actually followed through and bought a hard copy of later on. You're participating in a system that's designed to allow people to circumvent the law. Regardless of what you tell yourself to make it okay, you're breaking the law with every download.

2. Labels, especially independents, cannot survive if their merchandise is stolen from them. Independents are in the fight of their lives these days. I know a guy who owns an independent CD store. He says that within 3-4 years virtually all of his distributors will be out of business, which means he will be too. Why? Because of downloads. If all you want is high-price, poor-selection Barnes & Noble, Best Buy, or Wal-Mart, keep on downloading. But if you looked at the big picture and realized that independents are struggling for their lives, maybe you'd think twice before clicking through an illegal download.

3. People who own independents have a right to make a living. Let's take Lance, for instance. His reputation around the world is solid. He treats his bands extremely well and cares deeply for the bands in his stable of artists. He's a musician as well as a business owner. He has decades of experience behind him. What's that worth? A couple of bucks per disc? Easily. So when you piss and moan that you won't pay above $10, out of whose pocket are you taking the money? Lance? The artist? The distributor? I think Lance's prices are extremely reasonable. Furthermore, I think his CDs are worth every dime for the enjoyment they give me.

Zod is right about the genie. But that doesn't make it right, nor does it provide an excuse to continue doing it. The plain, bottom-line truth is this: Unauthorized free downloads rob bands, drive independents out of business, and cheapen the value of music.

Let me repeat that: Unauthorized free downloads rob bands, drive independents out of business, and cheapen the value of music.

Now, you can decide what's "fair" all you want. But, in the end, can you honestly look someone like Lance in the face and tell him you just stole $5 - $15 out of his pocket because you didn't think it was fair for him to charge that much for a CD?

Jesus, people. Wake up!