PAY TO PLAY

[MetalSound]

hi!

we just got an offer to do a nice lovely pay to play show....so we thought it´s about time to do something against that.

if you like check out: www.nopay2play.metalsound.de and support our crazy idea.

and watch this (sorry, only german):

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTZwgima-M4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTZwgima-M4[/ame]

 

[updog]

It's a good cause, but there are people in that audience who've paid to get entertained. Even if you present the problem with great passion and relatability, half of the people won't give a shit, a lot of them won't even understand what's going on and a handful probably understand and MIGHT forgive you for delaying their night for a period of one whole set.

 

[HeadCrusher]

You'd probably have your mics cut out before you could get your point across.

Tbh I don't really think there is a point to this. If someone's willing to pay to play let them. Who are you to tell them what they can and cannot do? Sorry, I know what you are trying to accomplish, but it's all about supply and demand. You chose this industry for yourself and it's your choice to work with the mechanisms it provides or not.

I'm not saying pay to play is the best thing in the world but it's not the worst either. First of all have you ever tried putting on a show (let alone a festival) yourself? It includes huge risks that promoters need to try and keep as small as possible. I don't know your band but do you think people would pay to see you right before the headliner? Have you been booked for this slot on other shows already? If not pay to play isn't taking your chances away either.

Secondly the industry is fucked. We all know that. While it was somewhat of a last resort over the last couple of years the live market is getting more and more difficult now as well. People are in this for the wrong reasons and thus the 'good old times' are just not a relevant reference anymore. If anyone really wanted to make a difference they'd try and build an alternative network of clubs, agencies, festivals, and so forth. Pretty sure people tried that but eventually some key players must have jumped ship or else we'd have heard of that.

Long story short: If you don't like it don't do it. Your little campaign will probably make you look unprofessional and if you'll do it right before the headliner everyone will be hammered (and therefore not very responsive) anyway.

 

[Mago]

I dunno man...I'd be pretty pissed to have bought a ticket and then not get what I payed for, as a visitor.
It's not their fault after all, as none of the festivals advertise their contracts with the bands in any way, so you can't even boycott it by not buying a ticket from them.
Not sure if most of the people would see that the promoter is the evil fuck in that scenario, and not the band. Don't shoot the messenger may not work in that case.
Of course I see the cause, and I actually think the idea itself is cool...sure would cause quite a bit of attention.

But I think you pointed out the main problem already: As long as there are bands willed to pay, it won't die off.
So all you can really do is to lead by example and talk to all the bands you meet about that.

Cause after all, the promoter get's his money in the end with what you're planning to do, even if it for sure wouldn't put him in a nice light.

I totally get why you are pissed though, I never heard of a method that "dreist". what the fuck, bidding system for slots, seriously?

 

[HeadCrusher]

When I went to school I was part of a program that only had two or three equivalents in my country. I talked to my colleagues that none of us should take on unpaid internships and that we should communicate this clearly. That's quite a message if 25-33% of all aspiring professionals in a certain field stand together to make a change, right? Seemed like a good idea before I talked to the first person that said "I don't care, I want the job.".

It's basic market economies dude. There's really nothing you can do about a self-regulating system.

 

[Mago]

Yeah I get that...it's pretty much the same story for with veganism (iirc you're vegan, right?)...can't force people to change in a non-totalitarian system.

I mean, I've put on concerts myself too, and I know the risk you take. But I came from a different approach, cause it was 4 bands organizing a concert TOGETHER more or less. We split the costs, said everyone has to commit to 20 tickets to make this work but every band could keep 100% of the ticket sales beyond that. Worked like a charm!

Only cause I could make my cut through playing myself of course. As a promotor who puts up the show for a living, you'd have to count that in too.
But honestly I think that bands already spent enough time, effort and money into keeping their music alive. So after all bands offer a promotor more than the other way around. It should be their job to bring people to the club.

On the other hand though, what else can you do if no one knows the band yet...you have to start somewhere. So the guarantee for a certain amount of tickets and get a cut per sold ticket is an ok middle-ground for me. Even if it is ridiculous to count in what you "earn", compared to other people working in the bar that day (if you take into account what you already invested in your music).

So I don't really know what would happen if no one would jump on pay to play offers. A lot less tours and councerts I guess, but maybe the more exclusive touch would drag more people to shows...hard to tell.

 

[HeadCrusher]

A promoter's job is to put on and promote (the job title already gave it away… ;-) ) a show. However he is not going to put on a band that nobody has heard of because he knows that he won't be able to sell enough tickets. So in that sense IT IS the artist's responsibility to become at least somewhat well-known. I know, I know, we've all spend thousands of dollars on our equipment and countless hours writing songs, etc. But let's face it: If any of our bands was just so special we'd have already made it big. Personally I like a lot of the stuff on this forum and other underground acts as well but that's because I'm a fan of that kind of music and that is not relevant to the industry as a whole. Overall good/innovative music will always find it's way to the top. The rest is just marketing. That's also why I'm pretty sure that for the most part only the bigger artists will survive in the current state of the live industry. They've got something that can be sold to people (musical quality aside).

Btw my point never was trying to force something onto someone no matter in what field. The kind of music you like, the stuff you eat, the car you drive, the religion you choose, whatever… To each their own. I'm entitled to my opinion (and so is everyone else) and I will voice it whenever I think it necessary but I'm totally willing to accept other's points of view (Deciding to not live with it because you disagree strongly with someone and move on from certain people or a relationship or whatever is a whole different story.)

To end this post with something positive: This guy played sold out shows in 500-2000 cap venues right from the start because he understood how to promote himself through his videos/free downloads. This summer he totally killed it playing second to last on one of my country's biggest festivals in front of ~15.000 people. (His dad being an artist himself and supporting his lifestyle/taking time to work on his music probably helped though. )

 

[lelahel]

what's the name of this festival?

 

[MetalSound]

Total Metal Festival in Italy. Unfortunately, we had to cancel the campaign because the booker wanted to have to full amount within 2 (!!!) days in advance....

 

[lelahel]

we have already sent them email some days ago! and maybe we'll take part to this fest
i was a fest organizer and lost a lot of money before,so i understan why they ask small bands to pay for playing
i think that it is a new era and we have to accept the pay to play!
i don't agree with persons that say if we pay to play it will die one day!

 

[Kellii]

i think that it is a new era and we have to accept the pay to play!
i don't agree with persons that say if we pay to play it will die one day!

I disagree compleatly.

Pay to play is like paying someone to take you're product you have put a lot of hard work into too off you're hands. If you're music is worth playing live then you shouldn't have to pay someone to play it live.

 

[Kellii]

i think that it is a new era and we have to accept the pay to play!
i don't agree with persons that say if we pay to play it will die one day!

I disagree compleatly.

Pay to play is like paying someone to take you're product you have put a lot of hard work into too off you're hands. If you're music is worth playing live then you shouldn't have to pay someone to play it live.

 

[drew_drummer]

Pay to play ensures the promoter makes all of their money before the night is even upon you. This means their risk is minimal, and your risk is very high. It means they wont even bother to promote the show, because they've got no interest in doing so. It means that if you want to have a successful night, then you need to promote your asses off - which means less time spent writing music, less time spent rehearsing and becoming a tight live band, and less time spend making your live show impressive.

So anyone who agrees with pay to play, and is in a band, must be some kind of masochistic maniac, or just a complete fucking idiot. Go and ask a chef in a michelin star restaurant to cook you some food, and to pay for the privilege of doing it. I'm pretty sure they will tell you to go fuck yourself.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

I prefer to sell the tickets, pocket the money and then not show up to play.