http://www.anus.com/metal/about/philosophy/
read and discuss, if the mood strikes you. anything you agree/disagree with?
read and discuss, if the mood strikes you. anything you agree/disagree with?
Philosophy of metal
- Thread starter cthulufhtagn
- Start date
the_3_toed_sloth
Massive member
^^^
ARGH! Why even bother posting if you did not read it? Congratulations on an entirely irrelevant post.
That link was actually an interesting, if long, read - I think he first formed an opinion before researching unfortunately, as there is little objectivity. I did like the way he formed a coherent evolution between metal phases, as i definitely see music responding to cultural influences, which themselves adapt and change over time.
My problems with the article are where he delves into the theory behind the music; he states "Making the plausible assumption that metal music has a belief system to express" as if this should be taken for granted, when i dont agree that it should. Since when was metal ever unified in this way, especially when acknowledging its branching nature (as he spends the first half of the article tracing)? To agree that metal evolved from protest/rejectionist stances towards pop culture is another thing entirely from saying that this implies a single, alternative belief structure (if i was pressed id say that it goes against the grain completely).
The lowest point of this article then comes as vir is introduced and spoken about....and spoken about....and spoken about...and spoken about. The bit about how the two world wars were caused by friction between "normative bureaucracy and the old order" is actually quite funny. I really do think this is a case of reading too much into something, as metal is just not that coherent. It is more anti, than pro anything. This article seems to assume that all metallers are secretly members of an underground church of Vir, Vir talked about like it is the one true way forward for all mankind, when it is so steeped in romantic ideals that it becomes questionable whether it is even serious. The bit about ways to process the concept of suffering is laughable in its idiocy. A change from "Metal expresses this philosophy in a range of ways" to "Metal shares beliefs with the concept of Vir in a range of ways" is sorely needed.
The article, from my reading anyway, seems to think that these qualities are absolutely unique to metal (ie. the paragraphs on Romanticism, Faust, Naturalism, Structuralism etc.), where metal could easily be argued to merely be a stylized expressions which at differing times and to differing degrees have explored these avenues. I see little, besides the author's belief that it is so, to rationalize a single ethos within the metal community.
Lastly, i find it disappointing that the author refused entirely to acknowledge the 'escapist' nature of metal, especially after carefully telling how it fed off of a dissatisfaction with the bureaucratic and prescribed formulae for modern life. Never is it ever even considered that the use of heroic, ancient imagery, of strong behemoths conquering violent, uncivilized lands, could be a modern form of the classic desire to tell fantastic stories. This seems a very likely explanation for the metal world's love of the concept album, as a way to tell stories and fufill an imagination that is not satisfied by the often mundane aspects of daily life. Instead we have the church of Vir. Maybe there actually is a schism of views, whether metal is serious or merely enjoyment (and i dont doubt that there are people who actually believe what they say/play), but this is never even mentioned as a possibility.
Overall it was worth a read, but just confirms why any university lecturer will so warn you about trusting internet sites as sources of info.
Oh, and those pictures REALLY could've done with captions.
ARGH! Why even bother posting if you did not read it? Congratulations on an entirely irrelevant post.
That link was actually an interesting, if long, read - I think he first formed an opinion before researching unfortunately, as there is little objectivity. I did like the way he formed a coherent evolution between metal phases, as i definitely see music responding to cultural influences, which themselves adapt and change over time.
My problems with the article are where he delves into the theory behind the music; he states "Making the plausible assumption that metal music has a belief system to express" as if this should be taken for granted, when i dont agree that it should. Since when was metal ever unified in this way, especially when acknowledging its branching nature (as he spends the first half of the article tracing)? To agree that metal evolved from protest/rejectionist stances towards pop culture is another thing entirely from saying that this implies a single, alternative belief structure (if i was pressed id say that it goes against the grain completely).
The lowest point of this article then comes as vir is introduced and spoken about....and spoken about....and spoken about...and spoken about. The bit about how the two world wars were caused by friction between "normative bureaucracy and the old order" is actually quite funny. I really do think this is a case of reading too much into something, as metal is just not that coherent. It is more anti, than pro anything. This article seems to assume that all metallers are secretly members of an underground church of Vir, Vir talked about like it is the one true way forward for all mankind, when it is so steeped in romantic ideals that it becomes questionable whether it is even serious. The bit about ways to process the concept of suffering is laughable in its idiocy. A change from "Metal expresses this philosophy in a range of ways" to "Metal shares beliefs with the concept of Vir in a range of ways" is sorely needed.
The article, from my reading anyway, seems to think that these qualities are absolutely unique to metal (ie. the paragraphs on Romanticism, Faust, Naturalism, Structuralism etc.), where metal could easily be argued to merely be a stylized expressions which at differing times and to differing degrees have explored these avenues. I see little, besides the author's belief that it is so, to rationalize a single ethos within the metal community.
Lastly, i find it disappointing that the author refused entirely to acknowledge the 'escapist' nature of metal, especially after carefully telling how it fed off of a dissatisfaction with the bureaucratic and prescribed formulae for modern life. Never is it ever even considered that the use of heroic, ancient imagery, of strong behemoths conquering violent, uncivilized lands, could be a modern form of the classic desire to tell fantastic stories. This seems a very likely explanation for the metal world's love of the concept album, as a way to tell stories and fufill an imagination that is not satisfied by the often mundane aspects of daily life. Instead we have the church of Vir. Maybe there actually is a schism of views, whether metal is serious or merely enjoyment (and i dont doubt that there are people who actually believe what they say/play), but this is never even mentioned as a possibility.
Overall it was worth a read, but just confirms why any university lecturer will so warn you about trusting internet sites as sources of info.
Oh, and those pictures REALLY could've done with captions.
i agree, it's rather obvious the author is something of a black metal fan 
and thus is somewhat removed from true objectivity. it is an interesting read, but flawed in many respects, as t3ts pointed out. granted, with regard to the aspect of escapism, i think such an analysis might be outside the intended scope of the essay, but then i think the author strayed significantly from his thesis in the first place anyway. the concept of vir is an interesting one, and if his main intention (as i believe) was to make a connection between it and metal music, he would have been better off ditching the comprehensive history of the genre and limiting it to aspects of its development pertinent to the topic at hand. though i prefer black metal to death overall, his condescending attitude toward the latter didn't help either....it's late, i'm going to bed, enough for tonight
and thus is somewhat removed from true objectivity. it is an interesting read, but flawed in many respects, as t3ts pointed out. granted, with regard to the aspect of escapism, i think such an analysis might be outside the intended scope of the essay, but then i think the author strayed significantly from his thesis in the first place anyway. the concept of vir is an interesting one, and if his main intention (as i believe) was to make a connection between it and metal music, he would have been better off ditching the comprehensive history of the genre and limiting it to aspects of its development pertinent to the topic at hand. though i prefer black metal to death overall, his condescending attitude toward the latter didn't help either....it's late, i'm going to bed, enough for tonight
Kenneth R.
Cináed
i'd have to agree with the above, and also: though i hate to do this--- it came from anus.com, which is a site i mostly can't relate to as the n in anus is for nihilsm/nihilist. so some of his "logic" makes no sense to me.
Arnold Layne
Member
I think most of what was written was true. Although I think it focused to much on black metal it was still a good read.
Who are the guys in the photo at the bottom wearing the old english looking clothes?
Who are the guys in the photo at the bottom wearing the old english looking clothes?
Don Corleone
Emre
i've been into anus.com for about four years by now...even though i find most of their stuff to be plain funny (esp. the reviews), what they have said about the history of metal, the different genres' origins are absolutely true, thorough and well-put. you gotta hand it to those anarchs.
![[KOTNO]Narrot](https://ultimatemetal-data.community.forum/avatars/l/1/1031.jpg?1052155060){kind=avatar}
[KOTNO]Narrot
Eats and spits corpses...
^ OMG why are you so annoying??
Anyways, Opeth wasn't mentioned anywhere in the article so it automatically sucks donkey balls. Really.
Anyways, Opeth wasn't mentioned anywhere in the article so it automatically sucks donkey balls. Really.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
imo anus.com is a group of preteen/teenagers with a thesaurus trying to objectify their world with large words and longwinded rants that neither prove anything nor consist of any worthwhile thoughts. it's just a bunch of propaganda BM-obsessive garbage. i'd rather read articles about these topics from people who know what they're talking about, and have a broader scope of the situation.
in short: i love metal. as far as churches go, mine is the church of christ. not "vir". so their whole thesis that metal subliminally adheres to the "church of vir" is just plain.. wrong.
in short: i love metal. as far as churches go, mine is the church of christ. not "vir". so their whole thesis that metal subliminally adheres to the "church of vir" is just plain.. wrong.
"and move into being an independent genre with a long future that does not require "innovation" or novelty to uphold the values its finds eternally powerful."
NeverIsForever
Member
Interesting read. The part about metal searching for something eternal in the haze of the counterculture struck a chord with me, although I would be hard-pressed to explain exactly why.
I'm not sure the correlation between metal and "vir" is as concrete as the author makes it out to be. True, they share parts of their philosophies, but I don't think one can say metal is an expression of vir and leave it at that. Rather, I think metal evolved separately and independently, and simply reached some of the same conclusions.
The part that annoyed me was where the author started talking about bands that had or hadn't made meaningful artistic contributions, etc etc. I don't think that whether or not a band's contributions are artistically meaningful is something that can be judged by any one person, as everyone's likely going to have different views on what constitutes artistry and what constitutes meaning. As far as I'm concerned it's okay if the author says he or she doesn't like a particular band, and leaves it at that, but don't try to say their music is artistically meaningless. That is strictly the personal opinion of the author and I don't think it has a place in an article that is supposed to be an objective and historical look at metal as a genre.
In other words, I rather resented the Cradle of Filth-bashing... :Smug:
I'm not sure the correlation between metal and "vir" is as concrete as the author makes it out to be. True, they share parts of their philosophies, but I don't think one can say metal is an expression of vir and leave it at that. Rather, I think metal evolved separately and independently, and simply reached some of the same conclusions.
The part that annoyed me was where the author started talking about bands that had or hadn't made meaningful artistic contributions, etc etc. I don't think that whether or not a band's contributions are artistically meaningful is something that can be judged by any one person, as everyone's likely going to have different views on what constitutes artistry and what constitutes meaning. As far as I'm concerned it's okay if the author says he or she doesn't like a particular band, and leaves it at that, but don't try to say their music is artistically meaningless. That is strictly the personal opinion of the author and I don't think it has a place in an article that is supposed to be an objective and historical look at metal as a genre.
In other words, I rather resented the Cradle of Filth-bashing... :Smug:
the author said more or less "metal has reached its peak", but...i don't think it has. he ignores a lot of bands that are pushing the boundaries and incorporating fresh ideas into the genre(s) of metal (opeth 
, agalloch with their neo-folk metal, isis with post-hardcore and ambient influences, borknagar with untraditional orchestrated elements, nile incorporating egyptian music/themes...all of whom and many others are pushing metal expression to new places)
, agalloch with their neo-folk metal, isis with post-hardcore and ambient influences, borknagar with untraditional orchestrated elements, nile incorporating egyptian music/themes...all of whom and many others are pushing metal expression to new places)
Kenneth R.
Cináed
deliverance
ecnareviled
the_3_toed_sloth
Massive member
cthulufhtagn said:the author said more or less "metal has reached its peak", but...i don't think it has. he ignores a lot of bands that are pushing the boundaries and incorporating fresh ideas into the genre(s) of metal (opeth
Yeah, ill say. The problem with the guy writing that was he seems to have a very narrow definition of what 'metal' is (ie. black metal), so bands that are prepared to push in other directions are either just fusing genres or using variation as a gimmick. It couldn't be that it is boring hearing the same thing rehashed 'n thrashed to death, and people want to try something new. Oh no, not at all....they are just all 'selling out' or killing the genre...
Metal ain't dead. Its just searching for a new direction.
the_3_toed_sloth
Massive member
MasterOLightning
Optimator
This discussion was in the GMD some time ago. I agreed with most of the article. The whole vir thing was interesting. I think the fact that there is scholarly analysis goes a long way to destroy the negative mainstream image of metalheads.
I like the idea that metal bands are the bards of this age. Whereas the ancient Greeks had their storytellers, whom are widely appreciated, we have metal bands, whom deserve respect also.
I like the idea that metal bands are the bards of this age. Whereas the ancient Greeks had their storytellers, whom are widely appreciated, we have metal bands, whom deserve respect also.
