Political and economic history

[zabu of nΩd]

I have decided that i want to study these topics in my free time. Anyone here who studied either in school should explain some of it and send linx to boox plz.

Uh, discuss i guess?

I don't know much about this shit, but one thing i'm interested in finding out is how much of the increased cost of living in recent history is due to scarcity of resources as opposed to political/business inefficiencies. Also want to see if there is any historical legitimacy in the Republican and Democrat agendas in terms of what effect their platform policies have had in the past.

Note to Dakryn: please try not to shit up this thread with poorly-cited and trollish conspiracy theories.

 

[Dak]

I have decided that i want to study these topics in my free time. Anyone here who studied either in school should explain some of it and send linx to boox plz.

Uh, discuss i guess?

I don't know much about this shit, but one thing i'm interested in finding out is how much of the increased cost of living in recent history is due to scarcity of resources as opposed to political/business inefficiencies. Also want to see if there is any historical legitimacy in the Republican and Democrat agendas in terms of what effect their platform policies have had in the past.

Note to Dakryn: please try not to shit up this thread with poorly-cited and trollish conspiracy theories.

How can I do that just by posting links to books?


When you say you want to study history, does that mean just a list of events, or do you want to actually learn about economics itself? If you are going to study politics and ecomonics, both of these subjects are highly contentious with multiple sides. So just "studying the history of" either of them is either going to require an immense amount of reading or only getting one side of the story.

 

[Vimana]

I don't have much knowledge of economics at all (so take this whole opinion with a huge grain of salt), but I think the current economic situation could be part of a trend. In the industrial revolution, a huge change in human life from crazy fast technological advancement happened at the same time as a vast change in the balance between the economic classes. In the industrial revolution, standard of living was a lot more expensive than it is now (based on how much people made, and how much they could affford), but recently it has become a bit more expensive than it used to be.

I think this second wave of crazy technological advancement may go on for much longer, since education keeps rising along with the population (and, as a result, the more people able to discover new ways to advance technology), so I'm not sure if/when the playing field will even out for the classes.

 

[Dak]

I don't have much knowledge of economics at all (so take this whole opinion with a huge grain of salt), but I think the current economic situation could be part of a trend. In the industrial revolution, a huge change in human life from crazy fast technological advancement happened at the same time as a vast change in the balance between the economic classes. In the industrial revolution, standard of living was a lot more expensive than it is now (based on how much people made, and how much they could affford), but recently it has become a bit more expensive than it used to be.

I think this second wave of crazy technological advancement may go on for much longer, since education keeps rising along with the population (and, as a result, the more people able to discover new ways to advance technology), so I'm not sure if/when the playing field will even out for the classes.

Are you talking about about costs vs income specifically in America? Or globally?

 

[Zephyrus]

Required reading:

Plato's Republic
Aristotle's Politics
Machiavelli's Prince
Hobbes' Leviathan
Locke's Second Treatise on Government
Rousseau's Social Contract and Discourse on the Origin of Inequality
Adam Smith
Malthus
Marx

 

[Vimana]

Are you talking about about costs vs income specifically in America? Or globally?

The West, mostly, but my reference point is largely based on the USA. I haven't read up a whole lot on Eastern industrialization.

 

[Dak]

You left out

Bastiat The Law
Hayek - The Road to Serfdom
Mises - Human Action
Rothbard Man, Economy, and State, with Power and Market


Quigley - The Evolution of Civilizations

Edit @ Vimana: You can't look at cost/income ratios without looking at monetary systems, business regulations, resource control, civil stability, etc.

 

[Zephyrus]

Sure, I'm a classicist and am out of touch with anything written after Nietzsche.

 

[Dak]

Sure, I'm a classicist and am out of touch with anything written after Nietzsche.

That's why you left out Bastiat

Edit: Zeph only recommends things that instruct in, and justify "evil overlordism". Adam Smith excluded.

 

[King Richard]

Here's a history lesson: all the world's economic issues can be solved by using the DDET, otherwise known as the Drug Dealer Economic Theory.

Have you ever contemplated price inflation on goods and services? Why do these goods and services cost more now than they did 5, 10, or even 20 years ago? It's a very puzzling issue. Take for instance a gallon of milk. The product itself hasn't changed much, if at all over the past 20 years. But yet the price of a gallon of milk has risen from an average of $2.36 to $3.99 a gallon, which is roughly a 60% increase.

Now let's compare that to the price of marijuana. Today, you can purchase the same amount of marijuana with the same amount of money 20, 30, hell even 40 years ago that you can today. I've been paying $20 for an eighth, and $60 for a half for the past 10+ years. According to my father, who you could say "dabbled" in some drugs back in his time, paid the same price for the same amount of marijuana, and that was 26+ years ago.

There's something wrong with this situation. How is it these drug dealers are able to have fixed pricing for seemingly ever, but yet we're getting assfucked by milk and gasoline companies? What is this world coming to? I call shenanigans.

THE RENT IS TOO GODDAMN HIGH!

Ron Paul 2012 bitches.

 

[Vimana]

Edit @ Vimana: You can't look at cost/income ratios without looking at monetary systems, business regulations, resource control, civil stability, etc.

I hardly know what those mean in reference to economics, but I guess I'll look into them sometime.

How is it these drug dealers are able to have fixed pricing for seemingly ever, but yet we're getting assfucked by milk and gasoline companies?

I think a big part of it is that companies have a lot more leverage since their business is legal. Since it's legal, it's a lot more centralized, and with fewer alternatives, so one can't do a whole lot if the price is raised. However, if one drug dealer has a lame price, one can find another one, and there's not much a dealer can do about it without calling attention to themselves. I'm sure you thought of that already, though.

Then again, price standards do depend on what stage in the chain of custody one buys the drug at. General dealer prices have stayed the same because they're more directly interacting with more people and building up a more open reputation, so they have to keep to the standards that the general market has, such as twenty dollars for a gram of potent weed. However, source prices tend to have more variation in my experience since not every source can supply the same stuff at the same frequency to the same people as every other source. Sources tend to try to keep themselves more secret and mainly sell to dealers, so they're not as bound by the main drug buyers' standards. In short, the prices of drugs are not entirely standard all throughout, but are for the ones buying to use. Illicit economics is interesting.

 

[King Richard]

I think a big part of it is that companies have a lot more leverage since their business is legal. Since it's legal, it's a lot more centralized, and with fewer alternatives, so one can't do a whole lot if the price is raised. However, if one drug dealer has a lame price, one can find another one, and there's not much a dealer can do about it without calling attention to themselves. I'm sure you thought of that already, though.

Then again, price standards do depend on what stage in the chain of custody one buys the drug at. General dealer prices have stayed the same because they're more directly interacting with more people and building up a more open reputation, so they have to keep to the standards that the general market has, such as twenty dollars for a gram of potent weed. However, source prices tend to have more variation in my experience since not every source can supply the same stuff at the same frequency to the same people as every other source. Sources tend to try to keep themselves more secret and mainly sell to dealers, so they're not as bound by the main drug buyers' standards. In short, the prices of drugs are not entirely standard all throughout, but are for the ones buying to use. Illicit economics is interesting.

I mostly posted that for humor really because I already thought of all the different angles this past Saturday when I was baked out of my fucking mind. But if people are actually interested in discussing it let's do this.

Obviously gasoline is a completely different animal than milk. Oil prices are totally based on speculation and "feeling" rather than tangible and realistic pricing, which is why I think the entire stock market is a complete catastrophe and anyone who attempts to gamble their money in it is a retard. When the experts don't even understand the stock market you should probably stay away. But I digress.

The problem is there are so many commodities tied into one another that prices have to go up because it all inevitably leads back to some dickhead who's feeling cocky one day and arbitrarily sets prices on a something that shouldn't be fluctuating in the first place. If anything, a commodity like gasoline should be DECREASING in price with the technology innovations, specifically with the use of computers. There's no fucking way anyone can argue that drilling for oil nowadays is more difficult than it was 20 or 30 years ago. And logically thinking, the more efficient an oil company becomes at drilling for oil, the less time and resources are needed to invest in obtaining the oil, therefore less money is spent on each "barrel" that is obtained, which means higher profit margins. So how is it even possible that something like oil could be three or four times as much to obtain today than it was even 15 years ago? It shouldn't be possible, but yet it is.

Milk prices have gone up over the years because the cost of materials to feed their animals has gone up. With the rising costs in fuel comes the added expenses on these farms for transportation of cattle and the milk from their farms to stores. And in order for all of the people who touch the milk to continue to make a decent chunk of change on the product they have to jack their prices up, and it's never ending. Have you guys ever sat there and thought, "When will this shit end? Until no one can afford any of this stuff anymore or when an asteroid smashes into the Earth and everyone realizes that money is a horrible man made entity and we should abolish it along with governments and just do what's best for humanity and live in peace." Because I have.

 

[Vimana]

I have thought about that, but sober. I've always wondered if all economic issues are a chain reaction caused by human selfishness.

 

[Dak]

Oil prices have to stay at $70-80 to support the petrodollar/oil economies from what I understand. I read the full explanation somewhere, but I can't remeber for the life of me where. Something to look into.

The backing of the dollar shift from a pseudo-gold standard to petro roughly at the same time the Dept of Energy was formed to "get us off foreign oil". Guess what didn't happen.

Money does not need to be abolished, fiat currency does, as well as the violent monopoly entertwined with it.

Edit: @ Vimana Not all, but most.

 

[King Richard]

Eh, I just "get" the bigger picture is why I said that. In the grand scheme of things, money is meaningless and pointless. Just like governments are meaningless and pointless. If there was neither of each the world would be a much better and safer place.

 

[Dak]

What is "money"? If you are talking about Federal Reserve Notes, or any other form of "legalized tender", then yes.

Bartering in real goods commonly used enough to be referred to as money is a result of market activity/selection.

 

[King Richard]

It's all relative when people are buying and selling shit, whether it's pieces of paper with a denomination etched upon it, a sheep, or one's daughter. If humans want to continue putting arbitrary prices on things, then money will always be there in some form or another. My point is, money doesn't need to exist at all. There doesn't need to be income disparity. There doesn't need to be retarded useless wars. Innocent people don't need to die because of a collective few shitheads who are wielding some insanely contrived authority want to. blah blah blah. Basically what I'm describing is Utopia, which is basically an impossiblity because humans are nothing more than glorified animals.

 

[Vimana]

Edit: @ Vimana Not all, but most.

Is this in reference to drug sources?

It's all relative when people are buying and selling shit, whether it's pieces of paper with a denomination etched upon it, a sheep, or one's daughter. If humans want to continue putting arbitrary prices on things, then money will always be there in some form or another. My point is, money doesn't need to exist at all. There doesn't need to be income disparity. There doesn't need to be retarded useless wars. Innocent people don't need to die because of a collective few shitheads who are wielding some insanely contrived authority want to. blah blah blah. Basically what I'm describing is Utopia, which is basically an impossiblity because humans are nothing more than glorified animals.

I disagree. I think it is possible for a society without war and poverty to exist, but the implementation is next to impossible. Human behavior and thought are moldable to insane degrees. I have some ideas of what would be needed for a utopia, but being that I can't actually experiment on them, I don't see them as much more than my mere opinion.

 

[Dak]

It's all relative when people are buying and selling shit, whether it's pieces of paper with a denomination etched upon it, a sheep, or one's daughter. If humans want to continue putting arbitrary prices on things, then money will always be there in some form or another. My point is, money doesn't need to exist at all. There doesn't need to be income disparity. There doesn't need to be retarded useless wars. Innocent people don't need to die because of a collective few shitheads who are wielding some insanely contrived authority want to. blah blah blah. Basically what I'm describing is Utopia, which is basically an impossiblity because humans are nothing more than glorified animals.

Prices on a free market aren't arbitrary. You need to do some more reading. In regards to the economics stuff and then wars I think you are kind of combining apples and oranges.


Peaceful transactions/interactions between free peoples is not the enemy.

@ Vimana : Re Economic problems/selfishness.

 

[Saparmurat_Niyazov]

I would recommend reading Democracy In America by Alexis de Toqueville, The Lexus And The Olive Tree by Thomas Friedman, and The People's History Of The United States by Howard Zinn in addition to the books Zeph listed. I don't condone the viewpoints in these books, but it is good to have varying perspectives on the subject matter.