Powerfest OT thread

[Rick Pierpont]

Heh. I understand both sides of the issue, and I'm willing to give woosta the benefit of the doubt. He was dismissive, but not any worse than Met-Al was of Twelfth Gate's "change" - he just voiced an unpopular opinion in a way that I think was misconstrued.

I appreciate the having our back, though.

No doubt! I do too. Actually I think we are in total agreement. And Amen, to the 12th Gate comments too. I haven't heard, but I hate when people write things off because it reminds them of something "popular." I think it sounded like an interesting mix, but then again I haven't been listening to them for years. A post in a forum micontrued?!?!! No WAY!!

No problem dude.

 

[Rick Pierpont]

Well, I'm here already... so maybe I should leave. I'll go get a sandwich or something. Call me when you've proven yourself.

Ouch! Hey, I was being extremely peaceful. You, Mike, and I were like the only ones being nice, but that's a different story.

You know what's sad - I'm so out of it this morning that I totally missed the joke.

I was wondering why you actually responded to that part of it. Hell, I thought you of all people on that board would know me the best Its all good.

 

[sh0kr0k]

Heh. I understand both sides of the issue, and I'm willing to give woosta the benefit of the doubt. He was dismissive, but not any worse than Met-Al was of Twelfth Gate's "change" - he just voiced an unpopular opinion in a way that I think was misconstrued.

I appreciate the having our back, though.

I'm trying to agree. I understand being really busy and not always able to catch the opening acts of a show. BUT I've been to plenty of shows where the curtain-pullers were the best part of the night and the headliners were a disappointment. Many times I've been thankful for catching the first bands of the night. AND if a promoter/booker is putting together quality shows, they wouldn't have anything less than quality bands on the bill anyway.

I should really express that I'm extremly pissed off at all of this, considering my passion for supporting underground bands that are working hard to get their music out there. I bust my ass and spend 100's of $$ every month just to help these bands have some extra exposure, all for someone to come along and basically treat them like previews at a movie showing. But whatever... he's not the kind of guy I want at my events then because I'd rather bring the great underground music to people who actually give a shit.

 

[sh0kr0k]

Ouch! Hey, I was being extremely peaceful. You, Mike, and I were like the only ones being nice, but that's a different story.



I was wondering why you actually responded to that part of it. Hell, I thought you of all people on that board would know me the best Its all good.

Did you just take offense to my joke? Or am I too hopped up on cold meds to realize that you're playing along?

speaking of.. anyone else feel like they have the plague?? I don't remember being sick after PF last year, but I always get a terrible cold after PP. Maybe it's going to start happening at both now...

 

[eaeolian]

I'm trying to agree. I understand being really busy and not always able to catch the opening acts of a show. BUT I've been to plenty of shows where the curtain-pullers were the best part of the night and the headliners were a disappointment. Many times I've been thankful for catching the first bands of the night. AND if a promoter/booker is putting together quality shows, they wouldn't have anything less than quality bands on the bill anyway.

You obviously haven't worked with the same promoters I have. I applaud your attitude, though.

I should really express that I'm extremly pissed off at all of this, considering my passion for supporting underground bands that are working hard to get their music out there. I bust my ass and spend 100's of $$ every month just to help these bands have some extra exposure, all for someone to come along and basically treat them like previews at a movie showing. But whatever... he's not the kind of guy I want at my events then because I'd rather bring the great underground music to people who actually give a shit.

Don't take this the wrong way, but...I'm a lot more, uh, "experienced" than you. I've shown up late to shows because I didn't want to have to sit through the shitty openers, so I understand his attitude, if not his approach (or his taste in music, I'd have traded him my nice bowl of chili & drinks in Manchester for seeing Biomechanical in a second). Especially in the '90s on the coasts, bands were booked with touring acts not because they were good, but becuase they were willing to sell/buy "X" number of tickets in advance, and it's put a lot of people off for a LONG time.

The flip side of this is, of course, I usually went to the trouble to find out if they WERE shitty before I skipped them. If Nocturnal Rites had come to town, for example, I'd probably have skipped them because I hated their "typical Europower" discs, and original singer. I went to the trouble to research them, and they were well worth being the focal point of a show. Five years ago it could be a bitch to even hear a band. Now courtesy of the web and MySpace, you have to try hard NOT to hear a band before you see them.

 

[eaeolian]

Did you just take offense to my joke? Or am I too hopped up on cold meds to realize that you're playing along?

speaking of.. anyone else feel like they have the plague?? I don't remember being sick after PF last year, but I always get a terrible cold after PP. Maybe it's going to start happening at both now...

He's playing along. Rule 1: Never take Rick seriously.

 

[Rick Pierpont]

He's playing along. Rule 1: Never take Rick seriously.

FUCK YOU!!!!

OK, just kidding!

On a serious note, yes I definitely have that side too, I really have been enjoying the discussion between you two about this subject. And Mike, I definitely agree with the whole promoter thing. The Thunderdome was horrible at that and it was definitely ticket selling driven. Jay seems to be getting better. He is definitely centered around sales too, but at least he seems to trying to match like bands up! I know how hard it was to find 5 bands for our last show there, so I can only imagine the difficulty at constantly finding opening acts.

While I have had bad experiences with openers as well, I still have tried to make to the venue ASAP. Especially if they have an area you can escape to. I have found some GREAT bands that I would not have otherwise ever heard of. You just don't know. And coming from the point of view of being one of those bands. I know how much hard work and dedication it takes to pre-sell those tickets. I know how much hard work and dedication goes into practicing so that you can be in [hopefully] top form. Which is exactly why I got involved in the discussion in the first place. I refrained from flaming 'cause I knew that wouldn't get me anywhere. And I really do understand his view, but don't like the sweeping generalization that would cause bands like us to never get heard if everyone subscribed to his way of thinking. It just underscores the necessity for the promoters to make sure that they put together well thought out shows. Ultimately everyone wins.

As for you Tammi (sp?), get off the meds So you really got pissed off for the same reason. You work hard at putting together a well thought out show (we need more of you in this world) and take offense that someone would be so cavalier about avoiding the opening acts since they all suck (movie previews ). Therefore invalidating your efforts at putting together a great show. All we can all do is simply keep doing what we are doing to contribute in a positive way to our little scene. We get a lot more done when we work together when we already have a much bigger adversary -- pop culture. I hope you feel better!

 

[sh0kr0k]

You obviously haven't worked with the same promoters I have. I applaud your attitude, though.

Why would anyone want it any different? I just don't understand... I look at some shows and wonder how in the hell they got put together. I know many people who don't even bother to listen to the bands before they book them.. That, to me, is poor business.

Don't take this the wrong way, but...I'm a lot more, uh, "experienced" than you. I've shown up late to shows because I didn't want to have to sit through the shitty openers

Uh-huh.. I understand, but what I hate is the idea that just because the band is unknown then they must be shitty. Another example is I get bent out shape also when people say that MySpace is filled with nothing but shitty bands. We both know that's not true, but how can someone make that generalization of the band profiles (or equally the bands on a local show) when it clearly is not the case. We both know that there is phenomenal music on myspace (not Divison though.. they suck. Much.) just as there are great bands that open shows. I'm not saying there aren't a ton of crappy bands out there in the world, but the assumption just fucking kills me.

The flip side of this is, of course, I usually went to the trouble to find out if they WERE shitty before I skipped them.

No complaints there. I do the same, too. Maybe I just don't understand why this happened with Powerfest because if someone DID research the bands, they would find that they certainly aren't "shitty" at which point the only reason should be lack of personal preference... right? Which then spurs the argument about saying "So and so is terrible" versus "I don't like this band"...

And yes, I'm arguing technicalities.

Now courtesy of the web and MySpace, you have to try hard NOT to hear a band before you see them.

You're right, isn't it great to have that kind of access?? I think it's fantastic!

Okay, I should probably go back to acting like I'm not affected by this topic because I'm liable to say something stupid (or already have) out of my emotional bias.

*zips lip*

Does "experienced" mean "OLD"??!!

 

[Cheiron]

I think the guy was crazy. He got too upset at something... so trite. He didn't like a band at a show. Wow. We have all been there before. If you don't like them, go do something else for a little bit. It doesn't 'ruin' your evening/life. I've been thinking of getting into the 'promotion' business as some side work... somewhat because I really believe in a lot of good bands out there that should play their music in front of people not within a 2 hour driving distance.

My fear is I'll go broke doing so. Especially, if people like him are unwilling to support the opening acts. I would put diverse, but still in the same genre/caliber groups in the opening acts to hopefully pull people in who want to experience new bands. That's one of the reasons I love ProgPower. I have never seen those groups before, and for a few have only heard a few clips, or songs on Myspace. Sure, last year I skipped a few of the opening bands... but that is because the show started at a time I couldn't make. Oh well.

Anyhow, I agree with you all here. And Sh0k, can you give me a link for your group (if i read this thread correctly and you have one)?

Lastly, I enjoy seeing you all in the ProgPower forums. Its one of the things that seperates metal from so many other genres. The people in bands often don't put themselves in ivory castles.

 

[eaeolian]

No complaints there. I do the same, too. Maybe I just don't understand why this happened with Powerfest because if someone DID research the bands, they would find that they certainly aren't "shitty" at which point the only reason should be lack of personal preference... right? Which then spurs the argument about saying "So and so is terrible" versus "I don't like this band"...

That horse has been beaten on so many metal message boards that it has to be a pancake by now. People say that things they don't like "suck", even if it's well done, because they've never had to put the time/energy in to actually do it. If I say a band sucks, it's because they can't play, or execute as a unit - it's not a stylistic thing for me.

Unless the music just really annoys me, of course.

Does "experienced" mean "OLD"??!!

In this case, yes.

 

[eaeolian]

My fear is I'll go broke doing so. Especially, if people like him are unwilling to support the opening acts. I would put diverse, but still in the same genre/caliber groups in the opening acts to hopefully pull people in who want to experience new bands. That's one of the reasons I love ProgPower. I have never seen those groups before, and for a few have only heard a few clips, or songs on Myspace. Sure, last year I skipped a few of the opening bands... but that is because the show started at a time I couldn't make. Oh well.

I like that idea, and I've frequently thought that way myself. The issue I run into is, sadly, the narrow-mindedness of a lot of metal fans. I think that's one reason there's so many sub-genres. If there's a way to overcome that, I haven't found it yet. Glenn's doing pretty well at it, but his diversity has been carefully chosen. He knows if he puts Martyr up there - to use an example - even though a lot of people will like the music, most will turn their backs because of the harsh vox.

Lastly, I enjoy seeing you all in the ProgPower forums. Its one of the things that seperates metal from so many other genres. The people in bands often don't put themselves in ivory castles.

Sometimes to our detriment, I think, but thanks!

 

[sh0kr0k]

I've been thinking of getting into the 'promotion' business as some side work... somewhat because I really believe in a lot of good bands out there that should play their music in front of people not within a 2 hour driving distance.

My fear is I'll go broke doing so. Especially, if people like him are unwilling to support the opening acts. I would put diverse, but still in the same genre/caliber groups in the opening acts to hopefully pull people in who want to experience new bands.

Oh, it's a lot of fun to do music promotions, but as with anything, there sure are a ton of frustrations, too. I started this without a scrap of knowledge of the music business. I read a pile of books on music marketing, band management, small business management, and creative advertising and it got me interested in ways that I, a non-musician music-lover, can be involved in the industry in a way that keeps me interested and utilizes the talents I already posses. Hence, promotions! Rock the Madhouse is the name of my group and it virtually landed in my lap as if by divine will! lol! I accepted the opportunity to lead the Michigan branch of RTM because so many of my friends are in quality bands yet tell me horror stories about how they've been treated and all the work they have to do on their own just for little or no exposure. So you and I have the same idea.

As for going broke... It takes money to make money, as they say. However there certainly are ways to minimize your spending. Sponsorship and the selling of ad space are two ways. Many local merchants, radio stations, music newspapers, or clubs will be willing to pay for advertizing space or donate products/services just so they can hit the same target market that you're working in - the local music crowd. I spend a lot of money, but not as much as some. Part of that difference is because I work with "local" bands, not nationals. Most of these local bands do not have tech riders or financial guarantees in order to have them on a show, thus I'm not spending hundreds, or even thousands, of dollars to bring in the bands. The money that I spend is on the promotional materials like making shitloads of fliers for all my events, getting t-shirts and tickets made for big events like MADFEST, and paying for gas to travel to my shows. Any $$ made from the shows goes back into our fund for other fliers or supplies, like raffle tickets, as well as payment for my staff.

Anyhow, I agree with you all here. And Sh0k, can you give me a link for your group (if i read this thread correctly and you have one)?

My promotions group? Certainly! www.mi.rockthemadhouse.com or you can check us out on myspace also www.myspace.com/mirockthemadhouse My pet project that I work with in my spare time (which is non-existant!!) is Dark Day Promotions. I created this little monster so I'd have a platform to do whatever I can to help bands from all around the world, not just limited to my state. www.myspace.com/darkdaypromtions Thanks for your interest!!!

Lastly, I enjoy seeing you all in the ProgPower forums. Its one of the things that seperates metal from so many other genres. The people in bands often don't put themselves in ivory castles.

I agree - it's GREAT to have so many band members present to interact with!

 

[booB]

I should really express that I'm extremly pissed off at all of this, considering my passion for supporting underground bands that are working hard to get their music out there. I bust my ass and spend 100's of $$ every month just to help these bands have some extra exposure, all for someone to come along and basically treat them like previews at a movie showing. But whatever... he's not the kind of guy I want at my events then because I'd rather bring the great underground music to people who actually give a shit.

Tam, I think you nailed it at the end of this paragraph... Guys like woosta, who aren't particularly interested in "locals", or "openers" (or "local openers" ), aren't really your target audience to begin with, so don't let it get ya down when they write off what you're promoting. That's like trying to market Hot Topic clothing, and getting pissed off when old people say they hate it.

I know that sometimes it seems like you're fighting a losing battle. I know, based on the small amount of promotions that I used to do. However, I think you're doing a great job (one hell of a better job that I'd ever be able to do), and I'm sure those people who benefit from your time spent and hard work are extremely grateful. (Thanks to you, I know more about the happenings in the Michigan music scene than the shitty Cleveland scene. We could really use you here. )

Granted, the guy could have been more tactful, and only has himself to blame for the reaction that he got... but don't take it to heart too much.

 

[eaeolian]

Tam, I think you nailed it at the end of this paragraph... Guys like woosta, who aren't particularly interested in "locals", or "openers" (or "local openers" ), aren't really your target audience to begin with, so don't let it get ya down when they write off what you're promoting. That's like trying to market Hot Topic clothing, and getting pissed off when old people say they hate it.

I agree 100%. He's not going to be open-minded about it, so that's why I just chalked it up to a difference in attitudes. There's plenty of other people to promote too.

Years of training on the Ytsejam (and Division's getting slammed in reviews) keep me from popping my cork at guys like this, since you can pretty much guarantee they wouldn't be this way in person.

Keep fighting the good fight, and positive things will happen. Or, as is usually the case with Division, someone quits.

 

[sh0kr0k]

As for you Tammi (sp?), get off the meds So you really got pissed off for the same reason. You work hard at putting together a well thought out show (we need more of you in this world) and take offense that someone would be so cavalier about avoiding the opening acts since they all suck (movie previews ). Therefore invalidating your efforts at putting together a great show. All we can all do is simply keep doing what we are doing to contribute in a positive way to our little scene. We get a lot more done when we work together when we already have a much bigger adversary -- pop culture. I hope you feel better!

That sums it up. Initially I didn't want to say a word about it, but then I just couldn't take it anymore. I had to lay the smack down!
:Shedevil:

I really enjoy having conversations like this on the forums. It validates the immense amount of time I spend here.

Thanks for the encouragement, Rick! It means a whole lot to me, really! Hopefully my effort isn't falling on "deaf ears" because, eventhough it's not about me, it does reflect upon the bands.. and THAT I tend to take personally.

One of these days I'll get over that..

 

[sh0kr0k]

Tam, I think you nailed it at the end of this paragraph... Guys like woosta, who aren't particularly interested in "locals", or "openers" (or "local openers" ), aren't really your target audience to begin with, so don't let it get ya down when they write off what you're promoting. That's like trying to market Hot Topic clothing, and getting pissed off when old people say they hate it.

But.. okay... I still haven't read one GOOD reason for making the distinction/assumption/preference for this view. Presupposing that you'd be uninterested in openers is such an arrogant generalization with a foundation of SAND to rely on. I've seen a million shitty headliners but I'm not going to let that affect my opinion for the shows I go to. The opposite is true, too. I am still totally astounded by this. There is no difference between these bands. A time-slot is absolutely no indication of a band's talent or "worthiness" of being watched and listened to. None, what-so-fucking-ever. The ONLY way it could possibly be a clue is based on a number of other factors, especially relating to the other bands on the roster.

Let's make an example. Band A from Detroit - they sell out all their shows, have a great number of fans that support them, they have a small but good record deal, and are known in their town as one of the best. They open for all the big shows that come through town. They travel to the neighboring big city 50 miles away to play an openIng slot of a big national show. They're used to this and usually get the direct support spot in their home-town. Also on this show is, Band B.. a band equally as talented and popular as Band A but they are from the hosting city. Thus Band B gets the direct support slot because they will have a bigger draw since they are the hometown boys. Now to try and tell me that Band A isn't worth checking out just because they are the opener, yet give a fair shake (or even not at all) to Band B just because of the time they play in the night, is completely ridiculous.

I will never understand...

However, I think you're doing a great job (one hell of a better job that I'd ever be able to do), and I'm sure those people who benefit from your time spent and hard work are extremely grateful. (Thanks to you, I know more about the happenings in the Michigan music scene than the shitty Cleveland scene. We could really use you here. )

Thanks for the vote of confidence! This debate has certainly fueled my fire. It warms my little heart to know that you read the stuff I put out there. I love it that people outside of Michigan are paying attention too! I'm very lucky to be here - the local scene in MI is very supportive and packed with talented bands of every genre imaginable. Makes my job easier You all oughtta be lucky I don't have a lot of money or I'd be putting together irressistable shows all year long! Then again, I kinda think my shows are already like that because I only work with the best, and many of them could kick the living shit out of some "mainstreamers".. even in the metal community. Hemlock > Slayer anyday! *ducks*

Granted, the guy could have been more tactful, and only has himself to blame for the reaction that he got... but don't take it to heart too much.

A tiger can't deny his stripes.

 

[booB]

But.. okay... I still haven't read one GOOD reason for making the distinction/assumption/preference for this view. Presupposing that you'd be uninterested in openers is such an arrogant generalization with a foundation of SAND to rely on. I've seen a million shitty headliners but I'm not going to let that affect my opinion for the shows I go to. The opposite is true, too. I am still totally astounded by this.

Me too... in my experience, Detroit audiences are more supportive of opening acts than Cleveland ones are, and, at the same time, the club owners allow more of them to be added to the bill... personally, this lack of openers detracts from my enjoyment of shows here in Cleveland, to the point that I rarely ever go unless I know someone who's also going to the show. I don't want to go to the trouble of fucking around with downtown traffic and parking, just to see one or two touring bands... I'd like to check out something new at the same time.

However, I don't think woosta was saying that he specifically tries to skip opening bands on a regular basis... my impression was that he wanted to spend more time seeing Chicago during the day, and that that was more important to him than seeing the opening acts. ...Then again, he did say that he "learned his lesson" from the first day, and chose to show up late on the second day, which is ridiculous and makes no sense. Just because he didn't enjoy AS, Bio, and Eldritch as much as he had hoped, that means he's going to hate the Saturday bands? Shame. (The thing that REALLY bothered me about woosta was that it seemed like he was bashing Biomechanical for being too metal. )

On the topic of opening bands... incidentally, my favorite opener ever was... drum roll... Twelfth Gate! (It was their first show together, opening for Helstar/Steel Prophet. Awesome! I can't believe they only had four songs then. )

I love it that people outside of Michigan are paying attention too! I'm very lucky to be here - the local scene in MI is very supportive and packed with talented bands of every genre imaginable. Makes my job easier

Yeah, I remember the Michigan scene being very tight-knit and supportive. The scene here in Cleveland sucks the big one. Show attendance is down (including my own), the local musicians are constantly stabbing each other in the back (even ones who claim to be friends with each other!), the venues screw around, and there's no one promoting or putting together local shows. Seeing your posts on the messageboards and MySpace is quite inspirational, especially knowing now as I do that you originally came into this as a total novice, and now you're a very successful promoter. I wish I could do what you do here in Cleveland, but, unfortunately, I have absolutely NO business sense, very little money, and very little free time (working a 2nd shift job limits your time a lot more than a day job does, although you'd think the opposite would be true. heh).

You all oughtta be lucky I don't have a lot of money or I'd be putting together irressistable shows all year long!

It's too bad I haven't won the lottery... otherwise, I'd pump a large chunk of that cash into RTM, just to see what you could come up with.

 

[sh0kr0k]

my impression was that he wanted to spend more time seeing Chicago during the day, and that that was more important to him than seeing the opening acts. ...

Oh, I understand completely, but the topic generally pisses me off anyway.

Yeah, I remember the Michigan scene being very tight-knit and supportive. The scene here in Cleveland sucks the big one. Show attendance is down (including my own), the local musicians are constantly stabbing each other in the back (even ones who claim to be friends with each other!), the venues screw around, and there's no one promoting or putting together local shows.

With the exception of poeple putting together local shows, all that still happens here too. I'm afraid that's one thing that will be prevalent in any market. uke: However, we have a TON of people working to put on great local shows. I have a lot of stiff competition! Michigan Brotherhood of Metal, Elliott Booking, Full Circle Agency, No Cover TV, Detroit Concerts, Annex22, Pitchfork Entertainment, Going Deaf Productions, SickWorld Productions, Horns High MI, Choke Chain Records, Blackened Moon Records.. and the list goes on! It's fantastic to have so many awesome people involved in helping our scene. I get quit upset when I hear people talking about how "shitty" the Michigan music scene is. The spoiled brats don't know good we have it

Seeing your posts on the messageboards and MySpace is quite inspirational, especially knowing now as I do that you originally came into this as a total novice, and now you're a very successful promoter.

*beams proudly* Thank you for that compliment! That really means a whole lot!! (((Chris, Rob, John, Glenn, Shane - are you readin' this?!)))

I wish I could do what you do here in Cleveland, but, unfortunately, I have absolutely NO business sense, very little money, and very little free time

Uh-huh... I said the same thing until a friend told me that his band got totally fucked over. It pissed me off that the bands could be treated sopoorly, especially while being so talented! You'll see, one day it'll snap and you'll realize that you CAN do this in Cleveland with little time and no money... you just gotta get creative, and get helpers! You might make a little difference in the local Clevo scene, but you'll make ZERO difference if you don't even try

It's too bad I haven't won the lottery... otherwise, I'd pump a large chunk of that cash into RTM, just to see what you could come up with.

Tease. :Smug: