Preamps n shit (everybody come in)
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Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
Well this is my take on it.
If you can't hear a difference between prosumer and professional pieces of gear then it's safe to say that you can happily stick with the prosumer gear. It's such a subjective deal at the end of things, and so much of this industry is based on hype, generalizations and misinformation. If it sounds right, use it, whether it be a Behringer or an API. If you can't hear the API as a better piece of gear, then chances are you don't have hearing ability craft a mix worthy of the API, so you're better off saving your money and sticking with the Behringer unit. On the flipside, some over-priced pieces of gear may actually give negligible or NO improvement whatsoever over lower-priced equivalents, and that's what the shoot-outs are for. As much as people talk about summing multiple tracks, you really do tend to hear at the very least a depth and tonality difference between most preamps. It depends on the source of course, and if I were doing a preamp shoot-out I would personally run complex, deep, ambient and also transient-heavy material through them rather than a single source like an electric guitar. With the latter you only get a snippet of capability, whereas with the complex material you hear how well it deals with retention of soundstage, transients, frequency information etc.
The best shoot-outs to do would be to run a bunch of tracks through multiple channels of 2 differing preamp types and seeing which retain the overall crispness and 'truth to life' better.
If you can't hear a difference between prosumer and professional pieces of gear then it's safe to say that you can happily stick with the prosumer gear. It's such a subjective deal at the end of things, and so much of this industry is based on hype, generalizations and misinformation. If it sounds right, use it, whether it be a Behringer or an API. If you can't hear the API as a better piece of gear, then chances are you don't have hearing ability craft a mix worthy of the API, so you're better off saving your money and sticking with the Behringer unit. On the flipside, some over-priced pieces of gear may actually give negligible or NO improvement whatsoever over lower-priced equivalents, and that's what the shoot-outs are for. As much as people talk about summing multiple tracks, you really do tend to hear at the very least a depth and tonality difference between most preamps. It depends on the source of course, and if I were doing a preamp shoot-out I would personally run complex, deep, ambient and also transient-heavy material through them rather than a single source like an electric guitar. With the latter you only get a snippet of capability, whereas with the complex material you hear how well it deals with retention of soundstage, transients, frequency information etc.
The best shoot-outs to do would be to run a bunch of tracks through multiple channels of 2 differing preamp types and seeing which retain the overall crispness and 'truth to life' better.
CatharsisStudios
trcksngsrpbngs
- Jun 25, 2008
- 2,198
- 10
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Man dude. you must be smokin some dank ass nug. seriously to make posts like that. you said your in texas right? get a lil mexican red hurr :Smokin: :3
totally offtopic =( sorrry
after reading that and i really don't know shit about mic preamps i think it kinda really comes down to the performance for me that is. ( i don't even have a preamp) except for my firepod which i like the preamps on that sucker
devouredremains
Matt Van Daele
You bring up good points but you need to keep in mind all of the albums that were cut on a desk using just one type of preamp!
The trend of using many different preamps is rather new.
devouredremains
Matt Van Daele
+1
As someone who owns a meager collection of boutique gear I'll also add that we all must be completely insane/obsessed for this to matter! In the end the 99.9% of the people buying the records we engineer will never be able to tell the difference.
Melodeath
Moonbow
This makes some sense. However, I must say I've never noticed any noise issues at all with my "pro-sumer" Alesis pres.
I should have noted that I wasn't trying to say API sucks or anything. I've never even heard any API or RME gear in person.
Frankly, I'd like to see people take that shootout more seriously, and take it blind after accounting for volume differences.
Haha, very true. Most people just care about whether they like the song, not the production. Hell, even me. Some of my favorite music isn't "well/high-fidelity produced," though a lot of it has a "fitting production."+1
As someone who owns a meager collection of boutique gear I'll also add that we all must be completely insane/obsessed for this to matter! In the end the 99.9% of the people buying the records we engineer will never be able to tell the difference.
The average Joe doesn't care if the cymbals are 1.5dB too quiet.
Actually lots of the highly sought-after vintage (and modern) pre's have noisier noise floors than modern cheap ones. The $30 ART Tube preamp has an EIN (equivalent input noise) of -129dB. The $3,000 Avalon AD2022 has more noise with an EIN of -126dB. So why does the latter cost 100 times more? That's a very good question. When a preamp costs 100 times more than another preamp, the difference should be evident to the most audio-challenged person in the world (like my mom). However, to most people it's not. The cheapest new car of 2009 is currently the Nissan Versa at $9,990 new. Imagine if there was another car that cost $999,000, but most people couldn't explain why it was better. Some people say stuff like "I personally can't give you a reason why it's a better car, but I'm sure there are car enthusiasts who could!". Some say "if you get the bucks, you should definitely buy the more expensive car. It's one of the best investments you can make". This would be the most bizarre thing in the world, yet, this is how I see this whole preamp ordeal. Other aspects of the audio world are like this to a certain extent, but nothing tops preamps (well, possibly a/d converters).
I've heard countless shootouts and just could not hear a huge difference. If there were audible differences, I could never tell which was "better" since they just seemed different to me (perhaps some really are clearly better for some people). Maybe it's true that the expensive pre's really shine through when the tracks are layered, but I have yet to see any shootout that proves this. My guess is that the same would happen with the solo'ed sound though. They'll sound different, but it'll be hard to decide which is better. I think for most people it would be difficult to blindly hear 20 preamps and point out three budget ones and three expensive ones with any semblance of accuracy.
If the only thing being claimed was that high-end preamps have a unique coloration, then that'd be fine. But people are claiming that they are important (sometimes necessary) to have a pro sound. This would be like saying that you need a certain expensive paint color to make professional paintings.
I can't help but wonder if this isn't just a case of The Emperor's New Clothes. All the pros have expensive pre's so you need them to have a pro sound. Saying you can't understand why more expensive preamps are better makes you a n00b, so you decide to just say they are better anyways by describing how "warm" they are while the cheaper ones are "cold and harsh". Now anyone running a studio with $200 preamps is considered a n00b by everyone else which prevents them from being considered a pro. So to become pro, they buy the expensive preamps and the vicious cycle continues. This may seem a bit cynical, but it could explain why "preamps don't matter much" is one of the most controversial things you can say in the audio world.
I've heard countless shootouts and just could not hear a huge difference. If there were audible differences, I could never tell which was "better" since they just seemed different to me (perhaps some really are clearly better for some people). Maybe it's true that the expensive pre's really shine through when the tracks are layered, but I have yet to see any shootout that proves this. My guess is that the same would happen with the solo'ed sound though. They'll sound different, but it'll be hard to decide which is better. I think for most people it would be difficult to blindly hear 20 preamps and point out three budget ones and three expensive ones with any semblance of accuracy.
If the only thing being claimed was that high-end preamps have a unique coloration, then that'd be fine. But people are claiming that they are important (sometimes necessary) to have a pro sound. This would be like saying that you need a certain expensive paint color to make professional paintings.
I can't help but wonder if this isn't just a case of The Emperor's New Clothes. All the pros have expensive pre's so you need them to have a pro sound. Saying you can't understand why more expensive preamps are better makes you a n00b, so you decide to just say they are better anyways by describing how "warm" they are while the cheaper ones are "cold and harsh". Now anyone running a studio with $200 preamps is considered a n00b by everyone else which prevents them from being considered a pro. So to become pro, they buy the expensive preamps and the vicious cycle continues. This may seem a bit cynical, but it could explain why "preamps don't matter much" is one of the most controversial things you can say in the audio world.
Melodeath
Moonbow
Awesome, awesome post. (IMO)
Maybe I'm cynical too, but I hold those same viewpoints - particularly about the "vicious cycle."
I've said it before, and I'll say it again (hey, even Moonlapse said something similar in this very thread), the audio world (particularly ont he internet) is filled will spreading rumors about gear, "snake oil," and misinformation.
Maybe I'm cynical too, but I hold those same viewpoints - particularly about the "vicious cycle."
I've said it before, and I'll say it again (hey, even Moonlapse said something similar in this very thread), the audio world (particularly ont he internet) is filled will spreading rumors about gear, "snake oil," and misinformation.
LSD-Studio
HCAF crusher
Melodeath
Moonbow
Nebulous
Daniel
While not trying to take anything away from the other points in your post, I do feel that this analogy is a little bit ill placed due to the fact that visual colour is all made up of the three primary colours, while audio signals and electronics are made up of so many more components and factors with mathematical/ scientific relationships, relating to the ability of the end signal to be an acurate representation of the input signal.
My take on this was proven yesterday, when I went with a band mate who was looking at purchasing a new vocal mic for live use. He tried three Sennheisers, the 845, 935 and 945. He began by looking at the 845 vs 945, both hyper cardioid. He started with the 845, which sounded ok. Similar to an SM58. Then he moved on to the 945, which was more detailed, had a nicer colouration, but was not a huge improvement.
When moving to the 935, with a basic cardioid pickup, we both shat ourselves. This mic was even more coloured to suit vocals than both of the other mics, but what it had was a noticably greater ability to pickup small details/ transients that sounded really pleasant with vocals.
I presume that the same sort of results could be had when comparing preamps. When you have lots of electronic components, all with their own varying electrical response to certain transients and input information at different frequencies (giving impressions of fat/ loose vs tight/ light/ detailed), it will matter what is used.
The price of cheap vs expensive might not be that any more expensive components are used, but rather that the manufacturer has gone to the effort of chosing certain components which work well with each other to create a certain sound.
This IMO should apply to all the equipment we use, though of course it does not justify paying $500 vs $5,000 for a pre if the $5,000 pre does not represent the source in the way that you wish it to. That is why we listen for ourselves and make up our minds and why the market is flooded with so much hype.
Of course the manufacturers want to to buy the one that's $5,000.
KeithTidd
Robot Penis.
It's hard to judge pre amps without using them a bunch of times. Converters are a huge factor too; if you're using good convertors, it will be easier to hear the difference a top tier pre amp makes. When i first got my hands on api's, i didn't think they were that special. They seemed good, but SSL 4000 pre's sounded just as good to me. After using api's many more times, i've been able to hear al the nuance i couldn't hear the first time. Now i love Api's. BTW ssl pre's sound good to me still, just not as good as some neve/apis.
if you can't hear the difference, don't sweat it. But i suggest you take comparison clips with a grain of salt, there's too many factors that come into play; what converters they were recorded through, what converters you are listening through, your monitors, your room, their room, mic placement, etc, etc.
if you can't hear the difference, don't sweat it. But i suggest you take comparison clips with a grain of salt, there's too many factors that come into play; what converters they were recorded through, what converters you are listening through, your monitors, your room, their room, mic placement, etc, etc.
LSD-Studio
HCAF crusher
I first heard it on drums and I just loved how the snare sounded when the API was driven hard (even distorted). one of my teachers at college brought the API along with Avalon, SSL etc preamps and we did a big shootout. I loved the API and picked it in every blindtest....that was when I decided that that's my fav pre (most obvious sources were drums and Cleanguitsr/DI I think...I loved the punchyness)
at least for most things, I'm loving it on Drums, Guitars, Shout-Vox etc more than everything else....I just feel it sounds less "flat" than some cheaper preamps.
I do prefer Avalon or Neve etc (warmer/rounder Pres) vor Female Vocals...I don't wanna say that the API isn't doing a good job at those, but...well...I like it warm for female vox
in general I'd say there are many really good (or equally good) mpreamps out there, some cheaper, some more expensive, but I dare say the API is the most versatile one and the one that fits best (IMO) into a metal/rock setting.
When I had to spend my budget on preamps it was pretty clear from the start that I want API preamps (for the above mentioned resons), and I did not regret it so far (don't think I will).
perhaps I'll make a preamp-shootout with snare soon to show you what I mean.
I'm even using the API to distort vox..it's extremely versatile!
If I had to pick only one preamp for everything it'd definitely be an API
