...AndTimeBegan
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PROGPOWER UK CANCELLED!!!!
- Thread starter J-Man
- Start date
Completely different issue. You not having the money to pay bands the upfront guarantee is different than people not buying tickets for an event with a number of major players in the prog/power metal field.
If you have the guts/confidence you can always try to get a big loan to help pay things up front, and then pay back the loan once you get your money from ticketmaster.
Really sucks this has to happen though.
As sad as it is to hear about this happening, it doesn't surprise me. From what I understand, England is more pop-driven than the U.S. Unless you're Maiden or Priest, you're generally not going to do well over there. Just ask Threshold.
Stay metal. Never rust.
Met-Al
Stay metal. Never rust.
Met-Al
Pellaz
Tigron of Immanion
The eventuality of all this is one thing: Unless promoters gun for REAL corporate sponsorship, and I do not mean the usual suspects like Shure, Vic Furth and Marshall. I mean Budweiser, Coke and Hot Topic, many more of these festivals will go the way of the Dodo and Passenger Pidgeon. Do you think festivals like Download and Wacken could survive on the small pittances some of these festivals get? Hell no! There is only so much money you can squeeze out of the Zods, AMBRs, and DrumrMans. There is going to come a point in time where the pockets of the single sponsor will be empty. When that happens, then what?
Peace,
Ray C.
Peace,
Ray C.
AMBR
Metal Grandma
Ain't that the truth. That was such a great line-up, I actually considered making the trip, but the timing was bad. Sure am glad now I didn't buy a plane ticket.Somebody mentioned it earlier and I think it's just that Europe has so many really good rock festivals that PP UK just couldn't automatically sell out. What the USA one has going for it is that it brings bands over from Europe that most of us in the States would never have an opportunity to see. Also, we don't have a lot of music festivals, so that's why PPUSA is such a sweet deal.
Ascension
New Metal Member
...AndTimeBegan
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Nah. There are plenty of small festivals without corporate sponsors that do well. MDF is one of them. Oh and a little fest in Atlanta called ProgPower USA
. This was an isolated incident of a bunch of promoters who were in financial trouble to begin with that took a huge risk and lost. It does not sum up the entire festival scene.Also fyi, Wacken doesn't have any corporate sponsors either and started out as a festival for local bands.
Volcane
Power Quest
I don't normally post here, but I have to say that we are not new to this - having succesfully staged PPUK I & II. We were not in financial trouble to begin with, and we took as many precautions as were humanly possible. We had cash to cover a reasonable loss, (as ever, the goal is to break-even), and we had all the stats and figues from previous shows. Unfortunatley ticket sales dropped 70% from the previous year. Not many small businesses could take a sales drop of 70% in a year without serious consequences. Please don't accuse us of being naieve.
Nah. There are plenty of small festivals without corporate sponsors that do well. MDF is one of them. Oh and a little fest in Atlanta called ProgPower USA
Also fyi, Wacken doesn't have any corporate sponsors either and started out as a festival for local bands.
And even Glenn claims he has to adhere to budgetary constraints. However, it will come a point in time when even a band like Pathosray will become unaffordable. That is why nowadays, major sponsorship is not an option, it is a necessity. Look, what if ShokrOk had an outfit like Lone Star backing her up, do you think MadFest would be cancelled? BTW, I applaud her for being responsible enough to know when one is in over their head. But, in her situation, a sponsor like Lone Star Beer might actually help prop MadFest up. Will it mean less freedom and flexibility? Possibly. Would that be better than no festival at all? Definitely.
Oh, FWIW, Wacken does have a corporate sponsor. A little beverage company known as Beck's. I hear they brew a pretty decent beer.
Nobody is saying that you are naieve. Everybody knows what you are up against. But, what if you had a cross-sponsorship deal with Bass, Northern Rock, or Carlsberg? It would definitely not hurt to have "ProgPowerUK presented by Carlsberg" (ex). It probably would have meant higher ticket sales because you would have marketing outside of the internet. Think about it: PPUK's logo on a can of the Official Sponsor's can? You thnk you would be reaching a lot more people? Yes.
I also think you sell yourself short. I would not consider you a "small business" in the traditional "Mom and Pop" sense. You are an "entertainment provider". That puts you in another class. Which means you are trying to put on a World-Class entertainment product (Like it or not, any festival, in a business sense, is a "product"). That means you need to a)Put out a World-Class product, B) Develop a strong reputation, and C) Make a reasonble amount of profit. You have already succeeded in "A" and "B". Just "C" was lacking. That is where the sponsor comes in. If a sponsor sees that you have a solid product, and that the sponsor can his brand name out there, they will back you up.
To prove my point on corporate sponsorship, let me give you an example. Let's look at a band called America. For those of you who don't know who they are, their most famous song is "A Horse with no Name". How popular are they? Well, in America, they are lucky if they sell out AMBR's car, never mind a mid-level theater. They play the back-water clubs, and places like BB Kings here. However, they are near legends in Asia. They recently did a tour in the Philippines, and sold out the Araneta Coliseum, SE Asia's largest at 18,000 or 16,500 for concerts. Now, tickets were priced up to $100US per ticket. Now, for you and me, that is not exactly peanuts. But, at the current exchange rate, that is 4,000PHP (Philippine Pesos). How expensive is that? Well, 4,000 PHP can feed a family of 6 for a month! Now, America gets a nice chunk of change from this show. How were the prices kept to a low standard (Cheap seats went for $15US, or 600PHP). Answer: Corporate sponsorship. They did not have any single-person sponsors. They had Philippine Airlines, Chrysler, and the Philippine Star backing this show. On their show in Cebu, They had some of the biggest corporate guns the Phils had to offer. What does this mean? You guessed it: Cross-marketing opportunities. It means more tickets sold. Now, the Philippines is a Third-World country. But, they provide a blueprint for metal promoters in the US and the UK.
Now, let's look at a Hard Rock show: My Chemical Romance also played this SE Asian nation. They had the likes of S&M Malls and NU107 backing the tour. Do you think MCR would be called sellouts? I think the Filipino fans would be just glad to see them live. So would many others. Tix were not cheap, $50 for the best seats. ANd, S&M Malls had a contest where the winner got two front row seats for MCR. Now, again, you have cross-marketing in action. Now, my question to you: If you had REAL corporate sponsorship, would you have folded your tent? I think you would have gotten a boost in ticket sales.
Would some people call you a sellout? possibly> But, if you ask these people the choice of corporate sponsorship for the show or no show at all, you and I both know what the answer will be.
I just beg of you not to fold your tent permanently, and to aim your guns at next year. Land a solid sponsor, and you will see the difference.
My 2 pesos.
Peace,
Ray C.
...AndTimeBegan
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Lest I'm mistaken... didn't you change venues for financial reasons? Also didn't you mention on your website that the future of PPUK is dependent on sales for this show? That's financial trouble. I'm not saying that you guys don't know what you're doing and I certainly never said you were naive... I'm just saying that this was a risk (like ALL business endeavors...) and that this cancellation does not summarize the entire festival scene.
I did NOT mean to offend you and I really hope that you continue to put on awesome shows in the UK. Everybody has setbacks. It's not the end of the world.
...AndTimeBegan
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And even Glenn claims he has to adhere to budgetary constraints. However, it will come a point in time when even a band like Pathosray will become unaffordable. That is why nowadays, major sponsorship is not an option, it is a necessity. Look, what if ShokrOk had an outfit like Lone Star backing her up, do you think MadFest would be cancelled? BTW, I applaud her for being responsible enough to know when one is in over their head. But, in her situation, a sponsor like Lone Star Beer might actually help prop MadFest up. Will it mean less freedom and flexibility? Possibly. Would that be better than no festival at all? Definitely.
Oh, FWIW, Wacken does have a corporate sponsor. A little beverage company known as Beck's. I hear they brew a pretty decent beer.
lol ok, even the New England Metal And Hardcore Festival (a US fest with ACTUAL corporate sponsors) has budgetary constraints. Major record labels have budgetary constraints. The President has budgetary constraints (ever hear of the office of management and budget?)... What's your point?
Your grasp of sponsorship is fairly limited dude. Being sponsored by a beer company does NOT mean that the company will pay to fly bands out. Wacken gets free booze just like ProgPower Denmark (see the thread on this board about this actually). That's pretty much it. Wacken's success is due to their keen business sense as they have a pretty well known booking agency backing them as well as their own record label to release their DVDs. They built everything from the ground up and there's no sponsor that pays for Wacken (as far as I know). Yeah they get free shit from sponsors, but that's not the same thing as what you're referring to. Very few festivals actually get sponsors like that because... face it, this is metal, not pop.
You are so right, budget drives everything, even in the big bad corporate world. And you are right, having a corporate sponsor does not automatically mean they are going to give you money, it may mean we will do this for you in return for this. Folks this ain't NASCAR.
sh0kr0k
Active Member
You're correct, as I said the only reason the show won't happen is because there is no money to pay for things that are essential.
I appreciate the support but "in over their head" implies that I was overwhelmed. That is not the case. I am perfectly able to handle the stress, decisions, and work that come with doing this. I am not as much of a rook as many you think, and Texas Madfest was not my first event. Please be assured that my decision was not because I was drowning. Rather the opposite.. the money dried up. Throw me several K and I'll give you a badass show! Until then, I will focus my efforts elsewhere.
That's the idea. But not everybody gets a corporate sponsor just because they want one. And not every company wants to invest in a music project, especially one that doesn't deliver the numbers of an arena show or at minimum PPUSA numbers. I was barking up the Camel cigarettes tree for a while, turns out they would only give me the same budget we had last year but they expected at least 700-1000 people per night. With last year's budget only 200-300 people showed up each day. I might be creative on ways to stretch money (when I'm in charge of it anyway) but I'm not a wizard!
Of course it does! No sponsor is going to hand me a check and say "do what you want, we trust you" - it's a business investment not a grant because they like me or give a sh*t about the music scene. They want to make sure that their money is being put to the best use possible and they have expectations in return.
If I were to get a corporate sponsor, I would have to create an event that would bring in the numbers, regardless of what the fans want. The good promoter will try to find a good balance between sponsor demands and not abandoning their fanbase for another group of people. I could have accepted the Camel money, put it all into a 1-day event, booked some more popular bands that draw in the kids like KSE or Lamb of God, then used the rest of the money to load the fest with bands we all love like Vaingory, Cage, Urban Breed's new band Trail of Murders, Avian, and maybe even grab that Believer reunion tour. I ran this idea by several people and you know what the resounding answer was? "I wouldn't go to a fest that booked bands like KSE, eventhough I like all the other bands!" ...
I'm not joking. Ya'll are a tough crowd to please, but I love ya! It seemed no one wanted to hear my reasoning or logic for how I can still provide them with a good show and they can leave for the "headliners" if they hate them so much. So, the result: make a new plan. Has a new plan revealed itself yet? No. Might I still try for Camel money again and just say "See ya!" to the complainers? I don't know. There will be a crowd, but which crowd do I satisfy. Sadly, Camel doesn't want to hear "but they're really good musicians!" because Camel doesn't care about the bands, they are using the event to market their product. They aren't going to give me a lot of money just so they can market to 300 people. Now I'm just repeating myself.
So yes, if there were a corporate sponsor for Madfest bigger than Joe's Shrimp Shack things would take a drastic turn and probably make a lot of you unhappy. It's the curse of the type of music we like - it's just not that popular. Unless I was already achieving PPUSA numbers (which takes years to accomplish) then I might have a fighting chance, but since that's not the case, some allowances would have to be made.
I tend to agree and I'm sure others will as well. The question is: who do I want the festival to appeal to - 20-somethings who listen to Hot Topic bands and will come out in droves or prog & power metal that can only draw 1,500 across the country? Only one will beget a good sponsor.
Anyway...
Back on topic, the PPUK guys know what they are doing by this point and it's sheer craziness to assume that a financial issue means they are somehow naive or "failed". Whoever insinuated that is probably not on the planning team of the festival anyway, so what do they know? The PPUK folk made a smart business decision that also carries significant personal disappointment.
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
Pretty interesting how everyone has an opinion and a business plan, yet only a few of you actually are willing to try this out.
For those who are coming up with these elaborate business plans, why don't you set up a fest, get corporate sponsorship and make a world class fest for yourself? It's easy... right?
For those who are coming up with these elaborate business plans, why don't you set up a fest, get corporate sponsorship and make a world class fest for yourself? It's easy... right?
...AndTimeBegan
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Nobody said anything about it being easy. (at least not me
)But yeah, the whole "you can't have an opinion unless you do it yourself" argument never really made any sense to me. I never tried to slice my wrists open with razorblades but that never stopped me from thinking that it's an idiotic practice.
...AndTimeBegan
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Nobody said anything about it being easy. (at least not me
But yeah, the whole "you can't have an opinion unless you do it yourself" argument never really made any sense to me. I never tried to slice my wrists open with razorblades but that never stopped me from thinking that it's an idiotic practice.
Love that statement.
