Programmed Drums Question

[Suicide_As_Alibi]

Okay, at the moment my set up for drum programming is working like this:

Crappy drum sequencer -> midi -> Sonar -> Drumagog

Out of the sequencer I get plain, precise midi files, so I'm playing around with randomizing things a bit - which I haven't done before.

So my first question is what do you randomize and how much? The quantize tool in Sonar lets you randomize the actual hits, but it doesn't seem to make any difference at one value, then putting it up a couple makes everything a complete free-Jazz mess. And hou much do you alter the velocities?

My other question is this - if I'm running Drumagog on them anyway, do I even need to randomize the midi tracks? Because obviously by it's very nature Drumagog introduces velocity and timing differences to each hit.

I'm not worried about them sounding really natural - I just don't want them to seem really programmed, if you see what I mean.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Steve

 

[cobhc]

Okay, at the moment my set up for drum programming is working like this:

Crappy drum sequencer -> midi -> Sonar -> Drumagog

Out of the sequencer I get plain, precise midi files, so I'm playing around with randomizing things a bit - which I haven't done before.

So my first question is what do you randomize and how much? The quantize tool in Sonar lets you randomize the actual hits, but it doesn't seem to make any difference at one value, then putting it up a couple makes everything a complete free-Jazz mess. And hou much do you alter the velocities?

My other question is this - if I'm running Drumagog on them anyway, do I even need to randomize the midi tracks? Because obviously by it's very nature Drumagog introduces velocity and timing differences to each hit.

I'm not worried about them sounding really natural - I just don't want them to seem really programmed, if you see what I mean.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Steve

Well I use drumagog's built in randomizing features and it still seems programmed to me. But then again I run it on DFHS which always sounds pretty programmed. I guess you need to do stuff like nudge the velocities down from 127 to say 100 on the faster parts cos obviously a real drummer would be hitting softer as he plays quicker, try nugding things off time every now and again by like 5ms, the things you really need to randomize are the toms, hi-hats and rides, imo. Just play with it and see, although I've never actually used any of this, but this comes from what I've heard other people say.

 

[Benny H]

With midi all I ever do is just randomize velocity by 5 or 10.

So in the velocity box in sonar you set all to 100 then tick the randomize by about 5 or 10. More or less if you like.. whatever.

Then this should effect drumagogs behaviour if you choose dynamic tracking. I think?

As far as messing with timing goes, I don't think you're gonna get anywhere with that quantize randomizing sorta crap. I could never get it do anything I wanted.

You could try messing with the tempo. Like say its 120 bpm, well vary it between 119 and 121(and all the varying degrees between). You can make the beat feel a bit different if you do that in the middle of a bar. What I mean is trying to mimic a drummer that might not be perfectly 'burying the click'. Go crazy with that and see what you find.

 

[DNW]

Every bit of "humanizing" I do to my drum tracks is all done manually, note by note. The thing I dick with most would probably be the dynamics of the snare. Aside from that, lil details like in a blast beat, I might shift notes slightly so that the snare hits and the hat hits aren't right on top of each other. It'll sound tight, but in reality it's slightly off. Really, if you listen to your favourite drummer blasting, thinking "Damn that's some tight shit"... well, even if it sounds spot on... how likely is it that every hit is truly spot on?

So yeah, you don't have to be able to audibly hear that a note has been shifted as such... a slight shift in notes can make a sequenced track sound a lot more human.

That said, most of the time I leave kicks dead-on, timing-wise... because... I just do. It's the hands that I dick with most.

 

[Suicide_As_Alibi]

Thanks guys, but I think my basic quiestion is this: I'm triggering Drumagog from midi files. Drumagog introduces velocity and timing changes because it uses several samples, not all identical - so does anyone alter the midi as well, of do you find that Drumagog introduces enough variation in its own?

Steve

 

[DNW]

I don't use Drumagog. Don't even know what the fuck it is actually.

I do use DFHS though, which automatically randomises the samples played. But it doesn't alter the velocities or timings at all. So that all has to be done in the drum sequencing. Personally, even if DFHS did have some feature like this, I'd switch it off and do it manually.

Even with randomised samples 'n' whatnot, if your sequence is all 127 velocities, snapped to the grid... you're probably gonna end up with a fairly unnatural sounding drum track.

 

[Machinated]

If you are using Cubase or Nuendo, you can edit the quantize functions slightly so that the notes are slightly 'out'. I have used it with around 10-12 ticks, which nudges all the notes differently. It adds a more human feel generally, at least for me, without putting it out of time. The difference is audiable.

 

[Matt Crooks]

In sonar there are .cal files (go to sample content folder)...

Select your drum track, go the the menu and select "Run a CAL" (look for it, I don't remember exactally where it is).

Go to the sample content folder

Select VARYVEL.CAL... this one will randomly vary the velocity... I put in 90 for the bottom and 110 for the top... but adjust to taste.

The do the same thing and select VARYTIME.CAL (or something similar), and put in 30 for the window. This will cary the timing 30 ticks forward or back.

Doing these to things will cary the velocity and timing enough to not sound programmed, but still sound well played.

If you want to get truely anal about things, you can go back in and bump up the velocity on the "1"s... meaning a cymbal at the beginning of a measure/end of a fill is going to naturally be louder than other hits (drumers are funny that way). Also you can work with the velocity fo snare fills... the first and last hits always seem to be harder than the middle ones... etc. etc.

Good luck

 

[Torsis]

Yeah, to get the MIDI drummies sounding "natural" it's all about the velo's.
You just have to think about how the drum "performance" sounds.

For a stock "mini-kick roll to a snare" (dubbiduh-dubbiduh-whack), break it down to the dub-i-duh dub-i-duh whack.
Typically, the "dub" is louder than the "-i-duh", and the "duh" sounds best with a different drum sample (a bit lower, tonalitywise), and not quite as loud as the "dub".

Dub-: sample 1, velo ...say 110
-I-: sample 1, velo ..say 103
-Duh: sample 2, velo 107
Whack: whatever

It's a lot of work tweaking MIDI drums ....most people go with "close enough" which, for the most part is ok.

...depends on how picky you are :-o

 

[KnifeVariable]

In sonar there are .cal files (go to sample content folder)...

Is there a way to bracket and randomize velocities like that in Cubase too? Man, adjusting those velocity bars by hand is seriously boring shit!

edit: my wreting a mytsery is

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

Yes, there's a very powerful midi editor under MIDI / Logical Editor

 

[KnifeVariable]

Damn, I knew I'd have to wrestle with that nightmareish tool eventually. Cheers Brett!