Question about Overheads and Room mics

[MetalWorks]

Is there a standard practice for Overheads (spaced pair) and room mics in regards to moving the track for phasing?

I have generally left Overheads alone and thought they sounded fine.

I know when I record a guitar track and use a room mic from several feet away, I will definately notice an improvement if I align the wave signals of the guitar tracks to put them in phase.

So back to drums.

I havent tryed messing with the drums to ensure that the snare for example matches the snare wave hit and is in phase.

And same with a room mic.

If you have a room mic like a Rode NT4 from 6 feet away, would you generally mess with the phasing and realign the track to the rest of the close mic drums?

 

[tarnationsauce2]

Personally, I will align all tracks to the overheads. Except usually the room mics.
They are there to add ambiance and room character. The time delay is part of the sound you want from room mics.
If you have them far enough away the sound they capture isn't very direct, there is a lot of room reflections that smear the transients, so alignment could be hard to do accurately.
The room reflections will make the mics have less chance of causing comb filtering.

 

[2012]

No, I don't. (disclaimer: but I have once)

It's called Time Alignment.

Sometimes it can sound really cool. It definitely takes the dimension out of the kit and makes it two-dimensional, but it also makes the drums sound punchy in an unnatural, but interesting way.

It makes them flat and big.

You will usually want to align things with the snare, but if you align a room mic to the kick it will emphasize the kick and it sounds pretty huge. It just depends on the song and the mix.

The only time I would think about doing it is if the drums just weren't working in the context of the song for some reason I couldn't suss out. The delay between the close mics and the overheads & room mics are what gives the kit a sense of depth and ambience.

I always place the overheads equidistant from the snare. Something else to try is the Recorderman method and it puts both overheads equidistant from the snare and the kick and it gives a pretty nice image to the kit, as well as keeping things as phase coherent as possible.

Experiment!

 

[MetalWorks]

No, I don't. (disclaimer: but I have once)

It's called Time Alignment.

Sometimes it can sound really cool. It definitely takes the dimension out of the kit and makes it two-dimensional, but it also makes the drums sound punchy in an unnatural, but interesting way.

It makes them flat and big.

You will usually want to align things with the snare, but if you align a room mic to the kick it will emphasize the kick and it sounds pretty huge. It just depends on the song and the mix.

The only time I would think about doing it is if the drums just weren't working in the context of the song for some reason I couldn't suss out. The delay between the close mics and the overheads & room mics are what gives the kit a sense of depth and ambience.

I always place the overheads equidistant from the snare. Something else to try is the Recorderman method and it puts both overheads equidistant from the snare and the kick and it gives a pretty nice image to the kit, as well as keeping things as phase coherent as possible.

Experiment!

I generally dont have any problems because my KM184's do a great job picking up the cymbols and I all I do is cut from some of the mid to low frequencies. All I really hear is the cymbols. The rest of my kick and snare tracks come out independant and sounds fine.

Im just wondering what the standard method is.

Haven't tryed aligning to the overheads so I wouldn't know what difference it makes. I guess I should try it since I know that theoretically there are time delays. But like others have said, the ambience gives you a cerain sound. But thats why I mentioned both the overheads and room mics. Which ones if any are people aligning or not.

Still interested to hear more input from anyone that has something to offer.

 

[tarnationsauce2]

Haven't tryed aligning to the overheads so I wouldn't know what difference it makes. I guess I should try it since I know that theoretically there are time delays. But like others have said, the ambience gives you a cerain sound. But thats why I mentioned both the overheads and room mics. Which ones if any are people aligning or not.

Still interested to hear more input from anyone that has something to offer.

See my post in this thread: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/production-tips/327023-question-about-article.html
There are sound clips of what time alignment does to the sound of drums.

 

[MetalWorks]

See my post in this thread: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/production-tips/327023-question-about-article.html
There are sound clips of what time alignment does to the sound of drums.

That was helpfull.

The stock definately reminds me of what I here now in my recording.

I definately noticed improvement in the punch of the snare and toms and clarity in the cymbols on the time aligned tracks.

And of course the reverse phase on the bottom snare mic is a must. I remember the first time I learned that I went home and changed a demo I was presently working on. The moment I switched the phase the snare sounded awesome. I left the snare and drumgog'd the kick and toms.

But thanks for the link.

I will give it a shot from now on because it definately cleared up that cluttered "room" sound and added clarity.

 

[aramism]

yeah that was my post and i wish there was a way we can merge these two posts lol.



but i was thinkign if i do the time alignment on a pair of OH (in xy over drummers head) and have 2 seperate room mics set up in addition to OH and individual kit miced... the "direct" effect with the kit mics, and OH mics added wit hthe delay and rever nfrom the two room mics would cancel out the "2D" aspect no???


by the way this is a very good thread (both this, and the responses to my thread about the article)

 

[colonel kurtz]

And of course the reverse phase on the bottom snare mic is a must. I remember the first time I learned that I went home and changed a demo I was presently working on. The moment I switched the phase the snare sounded awesome. I left the snare and drumgog'd the kick and toms.

a teacher of mine once mentioned that a lot of old-school engineers actually preferred to reverse the phase of the top mics of the snare and toms - since the initial transient of a mic on top of the drum is moving away from the diaphragm, reversing the phase of those on top gives the effect of the direct sound hitting the mic, as it does with the kick and bottom snare/tom mics.

that being said, i've never bothered to try it myself, so i couldn't tell you how much of a difference it makes.

 

[aramism]

hmm ill try it. i just naturally flipped the phase on the bottom mic.

 

[Grave Desire]

As far as overheads go...I never adjust by looking at the screen and aligning them...I usually put the mix in mono..and first check to make sure the overheads are in phase with each other or not..then adjust accordingly. Then I'll pull up the snare and check with the over heads...flipping the overheads out of phase to see if the bottom of the snare comes out more...if so I'll keep the overheads flipped and then check the kick, etc. Better to use your ears then looking at the screen IMO.

 

[MetalWorks]

As far as overheads go...I never adjust by looking at the screen and aligning them...I usually put the mix in mono..and first check to make sure the overheads are in phase with each other or not..then adjust accordingly. Then I'll pull up the snare and check with the over heads...flipping the overheads out of phase to see if the bottom of the snare comes out more...if so I'll keep the overheads flipped and then check the kick, etc. Better to use your ears then looking at the screen IMO.

Well im sure we do both naturally.

We have to look at the waves to see where it needs to be moved.

Then its a matter of hearing which spot sounds the best.

Some times I have matched waves up what seemed to be identical and it didnt sound any better than when it was off a bit. So you keep nudging til it sounds right.

So of course the ears have the final say.

 

[C_F_H_13]

Whenever I get a tracks to mix, I spend at least a little bit of time trying to align stuff (assuming only if it sounds lackluster). Sometimes that will make a horrid kit usable, and sometimes it'll totally ruin it. I usually aligned everything to the over heads, and really take some time to check phase. I do all this on a playlist, then flip between the unmoved and moved and see which one sounds better.