Question to all FireWire interface users (the FINAL question! *drama*)

[Erkan]

Yeah so... I have one final question before I buy new recording gear which will consist of a new interface (most likely the M-Audio Profire 2626) and a whole new computer and it will cost me about 1200€ so I need to be as sure as I can freakin' be before I do this. I'm sorry if this has been asked before but I have just spent an hour skimming through a 27 page thread on Gearslutz about the Profire 2626 but I couldn't find a straight answer to the question that is plagueing me.

Is FireWire, as a means of data transfer, really fast enough to provide very low latency monitoring? I'm not talking about direct monitoring or crap like that because that is useless to me when I track guitars with amp sims since I have no use for monitoring a clean guitar signal while playing metal.. right. I just need to be perfectly sure that I can plug my guitar in, throw my amp chain on a track (will be using Reaper) and monitor the signal THROUGH my computer and back out through the Profire 2626, while recording the DI. If I can do this, then I obviously won't be having problems with tracking drums since the latency will be good enough for drums too, or I could even use hardware monitoring on the drums since I don't really need to monitor drums with effects. Anyway...

I will aquire an Intel Quad Core Q8200 with 4GB DDR2 PC8500 RAM so the computer will be quite decent.. I'm just worried about the FireWire interface itself. As mentioned in some threads earlier, my Delta1010LT PCI-card lets me monitor crackle free at 64 samples (currently in a AMD64 X2 3500+ computer) and honestly... I can't imagine tracking guitars or drums with more than 64 samples latency. I get quite annoyed by anything higher, or perhaps I COULD get used to 128 samples but it doesn't feel very motivating to upgrade to something which yields higher minimum latency to be honest.

So... a follow up question: How do all of you do when tracking guitars DIs but monitoring with sims? It sounds like most of you guys indeed use FireWire interfaces... am I just too anal about latency and should I just accept the fact that FireWire is not fast enough and should I just have to learn to live with the latency? I hope I can do what I'm asking for... then I'll pull the trigger and buy the gear I need to step my recording solution up BIG TIME.

Thanks in advance and sorry again if these kind of threads pop up every now and then. Just looking for input from the best </asskissing>

 

[Erkan]

Fuck, I was sure I was posting this in the Equipment section but apparently I wasn't... oh well.

 

[digitaldeath]

I monitor with Revalver on a shitty M-Audio FastTrack Pro with no problems...

 

[TheDriller]

I monitor podfarm through an M-Audio Firewire Solo every day, practicing, recording, etc....

never had any issues.

 

[Metaltastic]

Yup, been monitoring with ampsims at 128 samples latency on both my Mackie Onyxes (Satellite and 400F) with zero problems!

 

[Erkan]

128 samples latency, that gives you about 4 ms latency right?

Do FireWire interfaces have any limits or "caps" on the samples or is everything dependant on your computer? Like, my Delta1010LT is capped at 64 samples minimum and 2048 samples maximum which I set from the M-Audio Driver Control Panel, so all audio apps use that setting automatically. For instance Marcus, your Mackie... how low CAN it go?

 

[TheDriller]

my shitty firewire solo can go down to 32 samples.

 

[Metaltastic]

I just checked Erkan, and 32 is the limit on my 400 as well (pretty sure my Satellite could make it to 64) - but 128 samples = 2.9 ms, and I honestly find that imperceptible for monitoring with ampsims! (might be different with drums/samples, as I think you said you wanted to do in another thread)

 

[Erkan]

my shitty firewire solo can go down to 32 samples.

Now that is what I needed to hear. It's good to know they CAN run as fast as that and I guess the amount of crackle and pops and shit depends on your computer but since I will have a pretty decent one, I should be able to track guitars with low latency huh...

Now, if only someone who had the Profire 2626 could chime in and drop a few words about how it operates when tracking guitars with amp sims, it would be awesome.


Haha as fucked up as it sounds, I'm looking forward to spending my entire fucking July salary on new gear, but I just have to be dead sure that this is gonna give me what I want..

 

[Line666]

I think you're getting a tad paranoid

But I understand that, cos it is a lot of money

 

[kev]

What graphics card are you getting Erkz?

 

[Erkan]

I AM paranoid about this!

Yeah, it's quite an amount I will be spending to get my standards up to a more respectable level. I'm just extra paranoid right now since I have NEVER dealt with any FireWire device before... except for a camera at school maaaaaany years ago so I really don't know shit about FireWire and stuff. All I know is that it's older than USB, but still better since it handles its own processing so it doesn't load the computer's CPU. I just don't know about the latency... it feels pretty good to have a PCI-soundcard since it's... well, attached to the freakin' motherboard itself, but running a cable outside of the computer, into a box which becomes your soundcard... well in my book, it just reeks of latency so that's why I'm so paranoid and wondering if I will be able to continue tracking guitars like I have done with my cheap shitty Delta card so far.

 

[Erkan]

What graphics card are you getting Erkz?

Yo buddy,

I was just planning on getting a Sapphire Radeon HD 4350 256MB DDR2. It shouldn't matter much as long as it can handle some basic 3D right? Audio apps and VSTs don't require any super graphics as far as I'm aware Why'd you wonder? I'm focusing on the motherboard, the CPU and the RAM primarily. Also getting a WD Caviar Black to operate as the audio disk, since I've read those have double processors on 'em to handle very fast writing and reading.

Edit: And no, before you guys point it out, I'm afraid I can't get a Raptor... it's just too much money right now A caviar black should do the trick for a while!

 

[Metaltastic]

Dude, what did I just tell you? It's not like I had to get used to the 128 samples of latency, it felt natural right off the bat with my Onyx Satellite, and that was coming from using a PodXT (which probably has a little latency, but no more than 2 ms total I'd wager) and of course real amps. And 64 is almost always an option, and 32 is just absurd IMO!

 

[Line666]

I'm running 256 at 18ms and I honestly can't hear any delay between my playing and the sound itself.

As far as I recall from sound theory lessons anything under 30ms is imperceptable to the human ear. After that your ear determines it as two seperate sources.

 

[Erkan]

Dude, what did I just tell you? It's not like I had to get used to the 128 samples of latency, it felt natural right off the bat with my Onyx Satellite, and that was coming from using a PodXT (which probably has a little latency, but no more than 2 ms total I'd wager) and of course real amps. And 64 is almost always an option, and 32 is just absurd IMO!

TELL ME AGAIN, TELL ME AGAIN, I'M SO PARANOID, IT FEELS SO GOOD EVERYTIME YOU TELL ME IT'S GONNA BE ALRIGHT!!!!!!

Haha, ok crazy stuff aside... mm yea, of course Pods and stuff like that have latency but I too don't think it's more than a couple ms at most. I agree, 32 samples is just absurd, but trust me... I have tried 128 a few times instead of 64 and it has just felt slightly weird... not like I could hear the actual latency, hence the "weird" feeling. I feel right at home with 64 samples latency while tracking. If the Profire 2626 can give me that, it's all fine baby... boom, the trigger will be pulled!

 

[Erkan]

I'm running 256 at 18ms and I honestly can't hear any delay between my playing and the sound itself.

As far as I recall from sound theory lessons anything under 30ms is imperceptable to the human ear. After that your ear determines it as two seperate sources.

Seriously? Oh my god, I swear I can feel it when the latency is over 10-12 ms :O 30 ms seems crazy, that should be VERY noticable. I remember trying out all different latency settings when I first got the Delta1010LT card, and I remember somewhere around 10-12 ms being the threshold where I started noticing the latency.

 

[Metaltastic]

Yeah, Owen, something is very wrong if you're getting ~18ms at 256 samples, that should be ~5.8 ms, and I DEFINITELY find anything more than that (5.8 I mean) to be noticeable and annoying! While the time for perceiving a discrete identical echo of a source is something like 20 ms I think, it's a whole lot different when it's you playing and then hearing!

 

[TheDriller]

Erkan,

If firewire interfaces weren't up to the task at hand then no-one would use them.

you'll be fine.

 

[Line666]

Blame crappy Line 6 drivers, I can go lower with Asio4all but its temperamental, doesnt like to run when theres anything else on at all.

I can sit at 29ms and not notice any distinct echo.

Interesting article: http://www.whirlwindusa.com/wwlatart.html

Delays within an ensemble of musicians can be, and often are, relatively long. Think of a symphony where performers are located across a 40-foot stage. The conductor waves a baton to keep time. The percussion section might be 30 feet (and 30 ms) away, while the second violins are 5 feet (and 5 ms) away.

Does the conductor hear all of the notes attacking at different times? The harps might be 40 feet (and 40 ms) away from the timpani. Do they think they sound out of time with each other? How do the musicians stay in synch with each other?

Actually, research sponsored by the National Science Foundation, through the Stanford University Department of Music, has shown that performers in an ensemble have no problem synchronizing with each other while experiencing latencies as high as 40 ms and even greater. In fact, latencies in the 10 ms to 20 ms range actually have a stabilizing affect on tempo and are thought to be preferred over zero latency.

The Haas Effect (or Precedence Effect) is a principle first set forth in 1949 by Helmut Haas, which established that we humans localize sounds by identifying the difference in arrival time between our two ears. The same sound arriving within 25 ms to 35 ms of itself will be suppressed and not be heard as an echo.

Only if sounds are more than about 35 ms apart will the brain recognize them as separate sounds or echoes.

Thats what I was quoting from, although my initial figures were a bit off.

It does say also in the article that musicians will be more comfortable with 10ms or less which throws that idea out the window. 10ms or less is considered imperceptable.

I've never had any problem recording accurate takes to a metronome at 18ms and the whole thing does make you wonder how much of it is placebo.