recording live drums

Tommy Evans said:
Good point! Guess I'm not used to taking 3-4 days to mix a song :/
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Who said anything about taking 3-4 days to mix a song? I was talking about 3 songs. I mix the first song a bit longer to the others, after that it's usually 1-2 songs per day + total of 1-2 days for mix revisions on all the tracks later according to the feedback from the band. So to mix 3 songs, it would take about 3-5 days in total.
 
Right now, for the mere love of recording, i dont think i would have the heart to charge people that much for recordings. Besides, i know what it is like to be poor(talking homeless poor when i was younger), and be in a poor band, so i throw people a bone. its not fair that only the rich bands make it. happens all the time here in colorado, specifically fort collins. plus, that karma will come back to me, some of it already has, IMO. and as for recording live drums, i am actually getting ready to treat the room next to mine so that i can record drums and such in it, because i have heard some beefy recordings with real drums, and it would be cool to make my own sample library
 
This rant is on the other end of the spectrum.

None of you guys are gurus of recording. Good at it, yes, but not the Prophets of Recording. People will do what they do. Doesn't effect any of you in anyway shape or form. If they program, so be it. I love real drums, and just the other day, I was like "Damn, I wish I had a set here." I love real drums, the real sound of them, the real flow a drummer has, but between living in a small apartment with my girlfriend and dumb neighbors, attending college, and working to pay bills, programming is my way of doing things. I've attracted plenty of business, and most kids I track don't even have drummers in their band because they are either starting up or just a three man band just messing around. As jimwilbourne said, I don't care if they need to practice the drums more, I don't have that time. I make it clear to them. Plain and simple. I program drums. 90% of the time, they are fine with it. The other 10% can blow it out their ass. So I don't care if other producers hate it, I'm getting the extra 300 bucks to feed myself and pay rent. I'm not here to please you.

Most of my clients come from my hometown area of Poughkeepsie/Kingston, NY, and I live an hour/two hours away. I'm not wasting gas to drive an hour and a half down there to record drums that are going to be less than adequate.

I do pre-production for any EP's I record. So I put enough work into the songs for the current situation. Most bands track EP's with me, but the ones who come to do a single, I just do a rough track of them tracking over their Tab-It files, than I give them my two cents on how to improve their songs, and then we hop to it. EP's; I pre-pro for a whole day on the EP, getting all the songs structured, figuring out the general sound they want. Then we go through all the songs, drums first, then bass for each, then guitars. That's usually a three day process, then after I'm done doing a general mix, I track vocals. The process is smooth, the band has fun, and we put lots of effort into it, for what it's worth.

I know most of you are saying, "Well, then you shouldn't be in recording." Fuck that, I will be. I love it. But it's not my way of life. Maybe 5-10 years down the road, it will be. For now, it's a hobby of mine to keep me from going crazy of boredom.

So track your live drums, I'll program, and you can keep giving me shit about "you should track live drums," rather constructively telling me how I can improve a mix with what I got (although some do, of course). I already know programmed drums sound robotic.

For almost over a year now, I learned most of the shit I know from this site, you guys are a great bunch of producers, but sometimes the arrogance is so unbearable. But I totally understand Tim is sharing with us the glories of tracking live drums and the benefits of it, and that hard work pays off. Very inspirational. Of course hard work pays off, I seen his studio on another thread, PLACE IS BITCHING. This was intended for those who have such a hard time figuring out why not everyone is tracking "rEel drumz". If you still dont get it, well.....ಠ_ಠ DEALWITHIT.

On a sidenote, I do track bands who went to a studio to track live drums, and it's a lot of fun to have the real drums to record to. So again, I get it. It's awesome.
 
i appreciate your side of the story and trust me, i've been there. :)

I know most of you are saying, "Well, then you shouldn't be in recording." Fuck that, I will be. I love it. But it's not my way of life. Maybe 5-10 years down the road, it will be. For now, it's a hobby of mine to keep me from going crazy of boredom.
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well, if you are going to join a forum where it might be a "way of life" to some people (or at least they desire it to be)... it's all they care about and how they meet other people with common interests and eventually develop long lasting friendships as a result of their common interests and obsessions which might eventually define their future career. then you are probably going to get an earful of opinions about the way you do things and how things are done by them. that's how ideas evolve; conflicting preferences will eventually overwhelm and one will become the predominant. it's really all about coexistence and the effort of harmony. challenge yourself, don't rest on your laurels on one definitive methodology. you're making music, not a hamburger... show some respect!

i am no prophet of recording but for now, recording is my religion.
 
timislegend said:
i appreciate your side of the story and trust me, i've been there. :)



well, if you are going to join a forum where it might be a "way of life" to some people (or at least they desire it to be)... it's all they care about and how they meet other people with common interests and eventually develop long lasting friendships as a result of their common interests and obsessions which might eventually define their future career. then you are probably going to get an earful of opinions about the way you do things and how things are done by them. that's how ideas evolve; conflicting preferences will eventually overwhelm and one will become the predominant. it's really all about coexistence and the effort of harmony. challenge yourself, don't rest on your laurels on one definitive methodology. you're making music, not a hamburger... show some respect!

i am no prophet of recording but for now, recording is my religion.
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I joined the forum mainly for tips and such. Not for friends, though I've made some. Not for personal opinions of what they want. More general of how things should sit in a mix or things along that line, not "Dude, it sucks. Use real amps," or things that don't help at all. I've seen that a lot here.Yes, I take into consideration their ideas, like "Hey, maybe you should try this." If I like it, I keep the method. Lots of people just say the way you are doing it is wrong, and I also read a lot that that their is no right or wrong way, but then you get bashed because the way your are doing it is wrong. I don't see the logic there.

I hardly post threads because, being that you guys like people to use the search bar, I do so prominently. I learn by reading, not asking so much on here. And I don't think any of less of you guys, I was being blunt because being blunt on this site seems to be the thing to do. I wasn't insulting you guys by saying "You are not prophets", just was making a point. Lots of kids who join this forum think you guys are Gods. Like I said, you guys are good, but you guys are good through hard work and things that you've tried. So I was saying if kids can track live drums or program, so be it. New people on here can easily be persuaded to do things by senior members, and find out it doesn't work for them, but instantly think they suck.

I also pointed out that I know the opening post by you was pure inspiration, not "Do it like this." I was directing my last post to the others saying "I don't get why they don't just do it." You Tim, are a good man. You get people. I read a lot of posts by you, and yes, some are vague or the least helpful, but others posts are thorough and helpful.

I challenge myself everyday. Trying out new methods I've read about, trying new programs and plug-ins. I see myself as a very aspiring producer, and just because I don't track live drums, I don't feel any less of a producer than the guy who does. If I like the way it sounds as well as the band, then mission accomplished. I respect music. I love music.

And I love hamburgers.

if you are going to join a forum where it might be a "way of life" to some people (or at least they desire it to be)...
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And I stated, maybe in 5-10 years it will be my way of life.
 
jimwilbourne said:
okay. let's re-look at this.
because I guess some don't get it.

I have a day job because my recording clients aren't a constant flow. if you're working with a band who can only afford x amount for their project and it costs x+2x to really do it as well as you'd really like, you're put in a corner.
And from a business standpoint, I get less bands bailing out on me when I charge them less than anyone else's prices. so in the end I get more practice in with different material and make more money.
no offense Anssi, but I don't know what you do with your day. but I can't afford a day off to do prepro for free. I do wayyyy too much between work, my own band & handling other things that life calls for.
so true prepro can't be done 100% of the time. I honestly don't have time for it if they don't have the money for it. I have to take time off work to do this. doing just 3 songs would easily run a band $1100 USD going by your method. and that's assuming that I'm already charging a lot less than most producers.

and quite honestly the programming drums part makes the sessions instantly easier to track guitars & bass. and I can focus the extra time in beating the guitarists with weak fingers & vocalists (which is what 80-90% if a bands worth comes from) into shape.
As Tim pointed out. anyone can program drums. so while I'm working on other things, I have someone else in the band programming stuff and editing arrangements when things need to be changed. so in a way. I do get some prepro done. just in a completely different way.

I often get into recording a song (or set of songs) and the band wants to change a couple of things. since I can't afford to sit around and do prepro for free and they can't afford to pay for it, it'd take 3x longer to record drums. especially when they decide to change something after they see how it sounds after guitars.
with programming it's cake.

spending 7 months on the same set of songs just makes me mix it so much worse because I'm just way too close to the band's music at that point and I'm hearing it a completely different way.
I spend 2-3 months start to end max. and usually only about 5-10 days of that is actually what's being recorded.

I'm sorry, but for some people/bands recording real drums is not at all the most practical approach.
at least not if I want a tighter production with the most flexibility.
my job isn't to hold the band's hand and make sure they practice.
my job is to make sure they have a set of songs that sound good enough to sell. I'm no baby-sitter. bands need to do their own footwork.

and once again.
don't get me wrong.
I love tracking drums. I hate editing them, but I love tracking them.
if a band can afford it, you can bet your bottom dollar that I'm gonna be tracking them and spending the time I need to get them edited correctly.
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+123456789
 
icanbeproducerertooo?

of course this will always be a fight, but guess what, who's making money recording bands? i am, and as long as i am, and i continue to do better, i'm gunna continue to do it the way I WANT, bc bands come back to me for MY sound. most of the time i record live drums. sometimes i don't. i use pod farm. i use slate samples, and joey sturgis samples. i use trillian for bass sometimes. sometimes i program synth. where is the line for acceptable recording ethics/sonic quality. there ISN'T ONE!!! so please, stop fighting, and dogging on other people for their ways, and accept that that's what they do and if you like it, do it too; if you don't, do your thing.

or something like that.
 
I think the big issue, and reason why people are getting so heated in this discussion is that we seem to have a bit of a generation gap going on here.

There's the old school guys, who grew up listening to bands actually playing their songs on records. Recorded with real drums and real amps in world class studio's. Back then editing audio was not as prevalent as it is these days.

And there's the new kids, who have grown up listening to increasing amounts of productions using software amp sims and programmed drums. Or where real drums have been recorded they've been completely edited to the grid and totally replaced with samples, with the only drum mic's remaining in the mix the overheads (severely high passed and limited to remove anything that isn't cymbals) So this is the norm for those guys.

Back in the day drum machines were only ever considered acceptable for demo purposes. And while software drums sound very good nowadays, the big thing we're missing is the feel and groove you get from a good drummer, and the magic of a guy who knows how to hit drums properly, in a decent room, with a nice sounding kit, creating a unique sound.

I feel young engineers these days are missing out on the art of creating sounds. The hardcore kids use Slate and POD Farm, the djent kids use Superior Drummer and Axe-fx. It's something that seems to go along with the homogenisation of the current music scene. Everyone sounds the same as everyone else, both from a songwriting and a production standpoint.

Particularly with these drum vst's there's normally not much needed other than a touch of eq to get a workable sound.
Whereas a real kit, even in a good room, normally requires a fair amount of work to get to a point where it sounds big and exciting and sits in a mix.

The advent of home recording and improving amp sims/software drums have massively improved the quality of home demo's and lower budget recordings compared to say 20 years ago. But the problem is there often seems to be a lack of ambition to move forward from that, as it's easy to keep on programming drums and working with the sounds that you've become familiar and comfortable with.
 
Trevoire520 said:
I think the big issue, and reason why people are getting so heated in this discussion is that we seem to have a bit of a generation gap going on here.

There's the old school guys, who grew up listening to bands actually playing their songs on records. Recorded with real drums and real amps in world class studio's. Back then editing audio was not as prevalent as it is these days.

And there's the new kids, who have grown up listening to increasing amounts of productions using software amp sims and programmed drums. Or where real drums have been recorded they've been completely edited to the grid and totally replaced with samples, with the only drum mic's remaining in the mix the overheads (severely high passed and limited to remove anything that isn't cymbals) So this is the norm for those guys.

Back in the day drum machines were only ever considered acceptable for demo purposes. And while software drums sound very good nowadays, the big thing we're missing is the feel and groove you get from a good drummer, and the magic of a guy who knows how to hit drums properly, in a decent room, with a nice sounding kit, creating a unique sound.

I feel young engineers these days are missing out on the art of creating sounds. The hardcore kids use Slate and POD Farm, the djent kids use Superior Drummer and Axe-fx. It's something that seems to go along with the homogenisation of the current music scene. Everyone sounds the same as everyone else, both from a songwriting and a production standpoint.

Particularly with these drum vst's there's normally not much needed other than a touch of eq to get a workable sound.
Whereas a real kit, even in a good room, normally requires a fair amount of work to get to a point where it sounds big and exciting and sits in a mix.

The advent of home recording and improving amp sims/software drums have massively improved the quality of home demo's and lower budget recordings compared to say 20 years ago. But the problem is there often seems to be a lack of ambition to move forward from that, as it's easy to keep on programming drums and working with the sounds that you've become familiar and comfortable with.
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Very good statement man. I get what you are saying about different generations. I love mixes from 20 years ago. The real sound of drums and the drummer playing is true art.

I would love to track drums, but as I stated, it's very unlikely giving my current situation. But programming drums, to me, is very acceptable. But hopefully, further down the road, I'll track live drums.
 
If you can get an interesting original sound using Superior/Slate/POD, then that's great, I'll consider it good work. The only problem is that I haven't heard that yet, it's all imitation, not innovation.
 
maybe i'm just a new-timer, or addicted to technology, or whatever you wanna call it, but i just prefer a slamming newer recording. i don't care that it takes massive amounts of eq to make a good drumset in a good room sound good, if technology exists to make a bad drumset sound amazing, i'm for it. lol

everyone over 30 please don't hate me! i understand what you're saying too, music is definitely missing some of the feel it used to have, but i'm not gunna pretend i like old recordings better, i don't.
 
there is no generation gap. plenty of guys in their 20's, my self included go out of their way to record drums. I'm of the personal opinion that even if all the drums are replaced you get a better sound then if you are to click away with your mouse. I also find it to make programming easier.
 
drumprogramming is awsome for prepro stuff and demo tracks for you own band.

But dont think you are an actual engineer if this is all you can do.

In the end the most honored albums out there are done with real instruments.
the sneap, zeuss, richardson, soucoff ....stuff is all done with real instruments and with engineering skillz and good playing.

So if you wanna get serious and want to become a real engineer and producer then get you shit sorted.
 
I feel like there is room for both.
I could never imagine a producer demanding that a band like Opeth program their drums. Nor could I imagine Periphery being forced to record real drums.
Everyone has a system and every band has their own sound. Let them be :loco:
So far I've been lucky enough to record real drums but I would never shoot down a band that approached me wanting me to program their drums or use their midi files. I do it for my own band's pre-productions and I'm sure I'd feel pretty comfortable working that way as well.
 
Nor could I imagine Periphery being forced to record real drums.
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why? halpern is a freaking monster and can play every note on that record! :cool:

even before matt, travis is a much better drummer yet they still programmed? :guh:

i think real drums is what that album is lacking tbh. ...that and beastier vocals. :oops:
 
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