Republicans

[speed]

It seems Republicans have shed any vestiges of conservatism, and have become outright imperialists, who uphold the power of the federal government. This transformation has been occurring since Nixon, but it finally now seems complete. Its good we have finally acknowledged we are an empire, but...

Now my question is, am I the only one the Republicans scare the hell out of? They have already made a mockery of the bill of rights; they mistakenly place the future in the hands of free trade (which is becoming problematic with S America hating us, and the Chinese obviously looking to top us); they are bankrupting our country and yet we havent received any benefits of this largess--the problems of health care, education, outsourcing, poverty, have gotten worse, and funding in these programs has been cut; they have criminally led our country into a war it cannot win--well its essentially a civil war now; they are supporting torture; they use the same old jingoistic politics of terror baiting, abortion, and gays to scare the hell out of most of our ignorant population; and they are terribly terribly corrupt, and laugh about it.

Isnt it time liberals, moderates, and conservatives stand together and do something before our future becomes even dimmer, and more of our rights disappear?

I really want to hear some Republicans on this. I have had arguments with Republican friends that are making ridiculous arguments supporting the war, torture, and suspension of civil liberties. I know Republicans dont actually address these issues, because they know how ridiculous they sound.

 

[SoundMaster]

If you really want some Repub input, post this same thread in the Billy Milano forum. It's stocked with Repubs, conservatives (both old school and neo), etc.


But, I agree wholeheartedly. The neo-conservative movement really has me scratching my head. There just seems to be no logic - in terms of long term thinking and planning - with many of their policies and goals. It's as if they're steering the Titanic, KNOWING that it's bound to sink, and are shouting "full speed ahead" right into the iceberg's path.

The good thing is that the events of the past few years have really opened eyes among many Republicans. I know of, at least, three long-time GOPers who voted for Kerry in 2004. And one is a multi-millionaire (the owner of the company I work for) who only stands to benefit from tax cuts. The thinking people on the right can see through the neo-con flaws. Let's hope more continue to do so.

On the other hand, the Dem party almost appears to be run by ROVE. If they seriously think Hillary would ever win the presidency and nominate her for the ticket, they're signing their death certificate. It's Rove making their decisions!?!?

 

[ARC150]

Isnt it time liberals, moderates, and conservatives stand together and do something before our future becomes even dimmer, and more of our rights disappear?

I think it is always time to "stand together," the question to my mind is how feasible is this?

That is, can a viable third party exist in Presidential (USA) elections?

The US Constitution allows for any number of parties, and the typical ballot hosts six to nine candidates/parties - not to mention the myriad (serious) write-in candidates.

To date, though, the strongest Third Party candidates (e.g. Perot, Green Party) have merely functioned as kingmakers - though even this show of power has recently brought to bear the question of whether a third political party can hold its ground as a viable alternative to a Dem or Rep party vote.

IMO, the greatest hurdle is the necessary support required to generate a third political machine given that the current two are so deeply and thoroughgoingly entrenched.

***
Quick answer: I do not know.

This seems to require a huge societal upheaval (though perhaps that is just me being overly pessimistic). Marx/Engles posited great social discontent as a requisite force in bringing the people together in the fashion necessary to effect change in something as powerful as the government. Granted, he was speaking to a complete overthrow of the government (which is not the case here...I hope), but he also requires that that discontent be extreme - something that could only be fueled by extensive suffering.

The problem is that, despite the outcries of people discontented with the curent state of the government, most people in the USA live comfortable lives. I wonder if the impetus of discontent truly exists in a fashion strong enough to power the people to do what is necessary to make significant changes to (or even within) the current structure.

 

[speed]

The problem is that, despite the outcries of people discontented with the curent state of the government, most people in the USA live comfortable lives. I wonder if the impetus of discontent truly exists in a fashion strong enough to power the people to do what is necessary to make significant changes to (or even within) the current structure.

Decadence and ennui have been the root of every civilizations decline. As you state, this is most obvious in our political system today. People would be willing to sieg heil, as long as their property was protected, and their lives safe. It would take an economic depression of the Great Depressions standards to get the middle class to do anything--see Germany in the early 1930's; the Nazi's were supported by the middle class.

What is so interesting, is how entrenched American businesses, the military, and thus politicians are today. This is our greatest problem. These businesses etc, are directly influencing political policy through lobbying (which I read, has increased exponentially in the last 10 years--like triple the registered lobbyists as before), and hence, resisting very necessary changes our country needs. Examples of this include our broadband--Korea and India have just laid 100X speed broadband as ours, basically because our cable companies have such clout. Many of our cars can be run on 85% ethanol, yet the oil lobby etc, is preventing this. And then our health care system could be digitized, saving I've heard up to 35% of the present cost; but there is resistance.

 

[ARC150]

Decadence and ennui have been the root of every civilizations decline. As you state, this is most obvious in our political system today. People would be willing to sieg heil, as long as their property was protected, and their lives safe.

Funny, I was in the middle of replying to the above statement when you added the following:

It would take an economic depression of the Great Depressions standards to get the middle class to do anything--see Germany in the early 1930's; the Nazi's were supported by the middle class.

At least we seem to be on the same page.
So, I guess the question is whether we can move forward without the need for something as great as the Great Depression (and I do think the illustration you make is apt - economics is at the heart of this)...

 

[derek]

It's a fine mess. I think America is a unique case insomuch as it has a population that is predominantly ignorant, who'll believe bullshit stories about Arabs coming over to rape their daughters, gays invading their town and changing their sons and some wacky liberal conspiracy. While these consuming and ignorant masses remain happy to be spoonfed nonsense and happily vote away thinking all is fine, America's corporations and politicans will be allowed to happily dry hump the constitution until it becomes nothing but a footnote on the next big business arms contract.

 

[Norsemaiden]

"America's very first 3rd Party was the Anti-Mason Party in the 1830s. The people then knew there was no difference between the Democrats and the Republicans". from: http://www.freedomdomain.com/freemason.html

This site also provides information on the masonic Skull and Bones society of which Bush and Kerry are both members.
Many sites back this up, including: www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0122-10.htm

 

[speed]

Funny, I was in the middle of replying to the above statement when you added the following:

At least we seem to be on the same page.
So, I guess the question is whether we can move forward without the need for something as great as the Great Depression (and I do think the illustration you make is apt - economics is at the heart of this)...

I dont think there is any doubt there will be a major depression; the question is when. I say this, as our debt load grows exponentially every day, and is bought by Asian--particularly Chinese investors. If they ever decide to sell their bonds, or stop buying, we could be in a heap of trouble. Now of course if they did so, with the US, as the biggest buyer on the world market, the whole world economy would tumble; but, as China's economy gets bigger and bigger, and owns more and more of our debt, it might be in their advantage to cripple us in ten to twenty years, and then take control of the world stage--this is purely my hypothesis here.

Also, today it was reported that personal savings hit the lowest levels since 1933, -.05%. Hence, Americans have all of their money tied up in their homes, or in other forms of debt; thus, if a recession does happen this time, it will hit even harder, as home prices will plummet, and people do not have any savings to tap into.

 

[QueensX]

I think it is always time to "stand together," the question to my mind is how feasible is this?

That is, can a viable third party exist in Presidential (USA) elections?

The US Constitution allows for any number of parties, and the typical ballot hosts six to nine candidates/parties - not to mention the myriad (serious) write-in candidates.

To date, though, the strongest Third Party candidates (e.g. Perot, Green Party) have merely functioned as kingmakers - though even this show of power has recently brought to bear the question of whether a third political party can hold its ground as a viable alternative to a Dem or Rep party vote.

IMO, the greatest hurdle is the necessary support required to generate a third political machine given that the current two are so deeply and thoroughgoingly entrenched.

***
Quick answer: I do not know.

This seems to require a huge societal upheaval (though perhaps that is just me being overly pessimistic). Marx/Engles posited great social discontent as a requisite force in bringing the people together in the fashion necessary to effect change in something as powerful as the government. Granted, he was speaking to a complete overthrow of the government (which is not the case here...I hope), but he also requires that that discontent be extreme - something that could only be fueled by extensive suffering.

The problem is that, despite the outcries of people discontented with the curent state of the government, most people in the USA live comfortable lives. I wonder if the impetus of discontent truly exists in a fashion strong enough to power the people to do what is necessary to make significant changes to (or even within) the current structure.

I wish that third party were Libertarian. It's time to stop thinking beyond our standard "two-party" system and realize that there are other options. Unfortunately, the other options do not have the political sway that the Republican and Democratic parties do. I too am deeply bothered, and worried, by the decline (as I see it) of the Republican party. Ronald Reagan, although vastly hated, knew what was going on and what to do (and/or his cabinet did). Now most of what goes on doesn't really make much sense, at least not from where I'm sitting. I have read different literature that put some ideas out there, but it's speculation.

 

[metu]

mech. It's a cultural thing: urban, rural, and educated suburban elite. Folks don't ponder policies, they agree upon enemies.

 

[Dän]

The way i vote is in this order
1. Which party will benefit me and my family most - ie/ financially
2. Who will do the best job for my country
3. WHo will do the best job globally

Thats how i think a lot of people vote as well - 'Will I be better off under this party?'

 

[Justin S.]

It's a fine mess. I think America is a unique case insomuch as it has a population that is predominantly ignorant, who'll believe bullshit stories about Arabs coming over to rape their daughters, gays invading their town and changing their sons and some wacky liberal conspiracy. While these consuming and ignorant masses remain happy to be spoonfed nonsense and happily vote away thinking all is fine, America's corporations and politicans will be allowed to happily dry hump the constitution until it becomes nothing but a footnote on the next big business arms contract.

Unique? So all the chavs running around the UK are enlightened? If there is anything that irritates me, its the all too common western European hypocrisy/arrogance.

It is ignorant to believe that a given modern nation state operates any differently on a fundamental level.

I dont know where you are getting the idea that the general public is so heavily steeped in those extreme "bullshit stories".

You want to talk about brainwashing, cultural ignorance, and conspiracy theories, talk about Europe's colonization and (most importantly) decolonization, their social systems, ethics and tolerance, National Socialism, etc. in their presence and see what "spoonfed nonsense" comes spilling out.

In other words, STFU.

 

[Lord SteveO]

I think by bullshit storries he means the mass media in the US. Ever watched the news over there? It's totaly different to over here in Europe.
In the US its scare stories or "look out this could happen to you", or if they are not covering those they concentrate on pointless stories about celebrities.
The americans i've spoken to face to face seem to think their media is the best. But yet if you watch it then compare it to European media you can clearly see it's not trying to inform them, its trying to keep them thinking the same way.
And most people on this board realise the US media is fairly under the control of the government anyway.

 

[By Design]

Now my question is, am I the only one the Republicans scare the hell out of? They have already made a mockery of the bill of rights;

yea, and you know whats really scary about that? the people dont see it, they will believe anything that is spoon fed to them, if they hear that it is in the best interest of america. no matter how unjust or even illegal! our government is so above the law its friggen insane.

take the Patriot Act, (republican contrived of course) a document that enables the government to revoke an individuals rights at their discretion.

when we allow our government (an impossibly corrupt regime) to draw a line between freedom and safety, (a line that need not be strait) that is their quintessential ‘foot in the door’ to a state that can suspend rights and freedoms of anyone whenever they see fit, because there is either freedom for all or no one is free.

i urge anyone who hasnt read the patriot act to read it here: http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
just get a grasp of what big brother has been up to recently.

 

[derek]

Unique? So all the chavs running around the UK are enlightened? If there is anything that irritates me, its the all too common western European hypocrisy/arrogance.

It is ignorant to believe that a given modern nation state operates any differently on a fundamental level.

I dont know where you are getting the idea that the general public is so heavily steeped in those extreme "bullshit stories".

You want to talk about brainwashing, cultural ignorance, and conspiracy theories, talk about Europe's colonization and (most importantly) decolonization, their social systems, ethics and tolerance, National Socialism, etc. in their presence and see what "spoonfed nonsense" comes spilling out.

In other words, STFU.

You took personal offence to what I said, when none was intended. I also never glorified Europe in any fashion and I happen to agree with your general statements on our affairs.

I was making generalised statements about how I look upon the US and I had hoped from the general tone, they would have seemed over-dramatised. I stand by them, and would appreciate a calmer tone in the future...because there was no need to act like I personally came to your house and called you a shit-head yank, was there?

 

[SoundMaster]

If there is anything that irritates me, its the all too common western European hypocrisy/arrogance.

Then US arrogance/hypocrisy must really make your blood boil.

In my line of business, I work with the marketers of many of the US's largest, most widely circulated magazines. Just last week, during a conference call with the circulation director of one of the nation's largest newsweeklys, the conversation moved to the upcoming vacation of one of her staff members. It seems this staff member was planning a trip to a country in South or Central America (the circ director did not know which) and she began voicing complaints about "their general hatred for America" (although, again, she didn't even know which country she was referring to). So, of course, she proceeded to state that "we should just bomb them all" (no kidding) and "do away with the evil of the world" (her quotes, paraphrased). Again, this is coming from a high-level executive making well over $100,000 annually. But it's good to see that she's all for bombing (for no good reason) a country (which one she didn't know) that, she believes, simply 'hates America'. You can't make this stuff up!

Is it arrogance or simple ignorance? Or simply both?

 

[Justin S.]

Then US arrogance/hypocrisy must really make your blood boil.

Not generally speaking, and this is due to its nature: However obnoxious and psychotic, its out in the open and in your face. It is not so heavily wrapped in layers of denial and pretense.

I think many people who dont fundamentally understand "America Brand" arrogance totally mistaken its transparency with profound stupidity. It certainly is dumb, but no more so than any other widely held idea. Its defining characteristics to me are its deep cynicism and bitterness. This is why you see so much flag waving, and knee-jerk responses like that of the staff member you mentioned.

Is it arrogance or simple ignorance? Or simply both?

Hard to say, but more than either it is spiteful. It not simply a matter of lack of education or mental abilities. This person desipses life. In this way, I think a certain segment of American society is very advanced in the stages of social democracy. The see the sick joke that it is, and are lashing out. Europeans, by and large, are still very smitten by their systems, and have an enormous amount of idealogy and hope banked on the future. America, with its every action speaks the end of concern, and hope. This is why they are constantly talking about it- they have none.

 

[The Subjugator]

Maybe we should be who we are intead of "banding together".

 

[mengeloid]

republicans- hate 'em. however its important to remember that the democrats are JUST AS BAD, perhaps they have milder domestic policies but are essentially committed to the same evil path of cartelism, enviropillage, slashing workers/civic rights, etc. etc. etc. and, at the end of the day, SLAUGHTERING millions across the globe which it would seem no american government in the past century has been able to avoid.

ps. guess its time to buckle up for iran...