Are We Losing our Rights?

[speed]

It seems the Bush administration has decided the constitution is no longer relevant. The Bush administration laughs while they piss upon The Bill of Rights. And even more interesting, is the fact they seem to have read George Orwell, and use the protecting freedom and citizens speech to do whatever imperialistic deed they please.

I think this needs to be discussed, as I am very, very concerned how little uproar there has been regarding this egregious attack on our government ( I am talking about the most recent domestic spying admission, the admission that there was essentially no evidence of weapons of mass destruction, as well as our torture camps, the Patriot Act, well the lsts of transgressions by the Bush Administration goes on and on). Every American should be concerned, regardless of ones political affiliation. Something must be done before all of our once constitutionally granted civil rights disappear.

 

[Erik]

Obviously 9/11 was the best thing that could happen for the power hungry and war mongering; people are now willing to give up almost any freedoms they have in the name of "security" against "terrorism".

But: the general public does not care about anything as long as they have television and shopping malls; there will certainly not be a sizable uproar of any sort any time soon, and when people finally figure out that they are being fucked over because their daily lives are impacted, it will be too late, and any attempt at uproar or display of dissent will be effectively beaten down and silenced by a government that does what it want to; as we've seen, UN and co. are completely powerless when the US government decides to have its own way.

Things are going to get far worse before they get better. From my perspective, your country's sole hope of redemption lies in the all-cleansing nuclear fire.

 

[speed]

Obviously 9/11 was the best thing that could happen for the power hungry and war mongering; people are now willing to give up almost any freedoms they have in the name of "security" against "terrorism".

But: the general public does not care about anything as long as they have television and shopping malls; there will certainly not be a sizable uproar of any sort any time soon, and when people finally figure out that they are being fucked over because their daily lives are impacted, it will be too late, and any attempt at uproar or display of dissent will be effectively beaten down and silenced by a government that does what it want to; as we've seen, UN and co. are completely powerless when the US government decides to have its own way.

Things are going to get far worse before they get better. From my perspective, your country's sole hope of redemption lies in the all-cleansing nuclear fire.

I totally agree with you, but I think I'd like to move before those cleansing nuclear fires.

 

[Erik]

yeah if homeland security lets you.

 

[speed]

yeah if homeland security lets you.

That is true. I am sure this thread is lighting up somewhere on some NSA spy program right now.

 

[Cynical]

Any government is a totalitarian regime, whether it attempts to put up a facade to the contrary or not. I see very little change under Bush than compared to under Clinton or a whole host of earlier presidents. The only difference is that Clinton was better able to put it into a "politically correct" phrasing.

 

[Erik]

Any government is a totalitarian regime, whether it attempts to put up a facade to the contrary or not.

Surely then the fact that it is "totalitarian" is irrelevant, and instead what matters is how much it decides to infringe on the rights that it supposedly grants the individual?

 

[speed]

Any government is a totalitarian regime, whether it attempts to put up a facade to the contrary or not. I see very little change under Bush than compared to under Clinton or a whole host of earlier presidents. The only difference is that Clinton was better able to put it into a "politically correct" phrasing.

I dont think Clinton authorized spying on his own citizens, nor had prisons of torture, nor passed the Patriot Act, nor attacked his critics as unpatriotic thus somehow allowing the terrorists to win.

But yes, his administration badly misused presidential power. Every administration since WWII has misused presidential power, and gradually and slowly chipped off more and more rights of the citizens, and granted themselves more and more rights that were never intended or were expressly forbidden by the constitution.

 

[Cynical]

Surely then the fact that it is "totalitarian" is irrelevant, and instead what matters is how much it decides to infringe on the rights that it supposedly grants the individual?

The fact that it is totalitarian makes those rights irrelevant, since they don't actually exist. What actually matters is what exactly the populus is forced to do, and whether it's constructive or destructive.

I dont think Clinton authorized spying on his own citizens

Like he needed to; the corporations take care of that well enough. Fall out of line, you don't eat.

nor had prisons of torture

No, he had prisons of anal rape and HIV.

nor passed the Patriot Act

Which was more superficial than anything.

nor attacked his critics as unpatriotic thus somehow allowing the terrorists to win.

No, he attacked them as intolerant and "non-progressive" or something, and thus causing the suffering of all americans and being responsible for all racial and sexual tensions.

Every administration since WWII has misused presidential power

Andrew Jackson, really.

 

[speed]

Now now, there were a number of presidents after Jackson that really didnt do much at all with the presidency and presidential power: Benjamin Harrison, Chester Arthur, Millard Fillmore, Rutherford B Hayes, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover, U.S. Grant (who is an honorable mention for having no intention to increase presidential power as he was too drunk to care). I tell you, this country needs another boring ho-hum non-ambitious president like Gerald Ford or Jimmy Carter.

 

[derek]

I dunno...a drunk president like Grant might be interesting "mys felsllolwss mexijnmcanms"

But, i agree. I was pretty enraged to hear about the monitoring of phone calls no longer needing a court order. It used to be the case of distract folks with one hand and do the deed with the other, scarily enough it seems to be both hands in the air saying "we're doing it, and you cant do jack". Your all being raped of your constitutional rights, that many Americans blabber on about so much.

But Cynical's points also seem relevant, i dont think its anything particuarly new, its just becoming more brazen. Having said that, the beginning of the end was, for me, when your president was murdered and you were all fobbed off with stories about magic bullets.

 

[MasterOLightning]

Last time I checked I could still vote, I could still worship or not worship as I please, I could speak my mind freely, I could print critical materials about the government or speak badly of it, etc. I am not seeing any of my constitutional rights being taken away.

Most of the issues people have are in regards to privacy, which has always been a grey area anyway.

 

[derek]

Your constitutional rights are supposed to protect you from imprisonment without trial, that has been eradicated with the patriot act.

Are you honestly not even slightly worried about the direction some of these bills are taking the US?

 

[Erik]

Last time I checked I could still vote, I could still worship or not worship as I please, I could speak my mind freely, I could print critical materials about the government or speak badly of it, etc. I am not seeing any of my constitutional rights being taken away.

You're not looking hard enough, then. Too tired to elaborate right now.

 

[MasterOLightning]

I feel that terrorism is a valid enough pretext to imprison certain individuals. This is not something I'm worried about.

Let the government look at what books I take out of the library. Like someone else stated, corporate America already knows what groceries I buy and everything else I consume. If the government wants to know that about me, they can buy that info easily.

I think you're all missing the point about these rights infringements, minor as they are. They affect miniscule amounts of people. They aren't out to get me or you, until they have reason to believe that we are seriously dangerous. And while we can legitimately doubt their judgment on this matter, I think that there's really little to worry about.

 

[derek]

I like your more pragmatic take on the issue, and with regard to everyday life...I guess these right infringements are reasonably minor if you are not intending to harm the US in anyways.

But, most of the objections are more philosophical. There are certain rights people feel they have that the constitution should be protecting, yet these rights are being eroded. Thats were these objections are coming from.

 

[MasterOLightning]

Understood. It seems pragmatism and philosophy tend to clash quite often.

I tend to look at things on a more practical level. For example, look at my post on recycling in the 2008 thread. A clear example of where a well- meaning strategy of conservation goes horribly wrong in practice.

 

[Cythraul]

The fact that it is totalitarian makes those rights irrelevant, since they don't actually exist. What actually matters is what exactly the populus is forced to do, and whether it's constructive or destructive.

Nice one. Our ordinary notions of totalitarian and non-totalitarian work just fine. I'd like to know where you get the idea that all governments are totalitarian. I must have been mistaken all my life thinking that I could actually distinguish between various types of government. But no, I was wrong. All the outward behavior of a government in relation to its citizens means absolutely nothing because behind the facade, its actually totalitarian. Furthermore, the fact that somebody can go on television, criticize the president, and not get arrested for it is no evidence of constitutional rights or any of that nonsense; that's all just an illusion.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Does anyone recall reading about the man who criticised the president's war on Iraq when he was just chatting in his local gym? Someone didn't like what he said and he soon was arrested as a terror suspect. He was just a regular white man (so he didn't even look the part).
Still, there is more freedom in the USA than there is in Britain. An article about this appeared in the last copy of the Sunday Times, in the news review supplement. People are being arrested for opposing the Iraq war and also there was a case of a woman who joined in a Radio 5 live phone-in who was arrested after she stated her opinion that it was as dangerous to allow two homosexual men to adopt a young boy as it would be to allow two heterosexual men to adopt a young girl. Things have not gone so ridiculous in America yet.

 

[hibernal_dream]

There are certain rights people feel they have that the constitution should be protecting, yet these rights are being eroded. Thats were these objections are coming from.

If this is the case then these people should challenge the laws in the courts.