Are We Losing our Rights?
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MasterOLightning said:
The problem is, is that anytime rights are taken, they are never, ever, given back. What if our government becomes even more corrupt and destructive than it is now? (Yes, I sound like a member of the Michigan Militia) What if there comes a time, when we feel the need to openly and actively protest? With these powers, any rival or dissenter could be branded a terrorist. And even worse, as has been discovered by the intelligence of the Iraqi war, and by Nixon, those in power, can use these domestic spying powers for political advantage.
derek
Grey Eminence
I wouldn't go as far to say the US has more freedom the we do over here in the UK. Without a doubt, I'd say a UK citizen is more "free" than a US one. But a pissing match about who is the most "free" is sorta irrelevant.
The point is that many rights we feel are important in any modern society seem to be slowly disappearing, and that is most worry-some.
Out of curiosity though, what would be the process for people to appeal these laws? Courts -> State court -> Supreme court? Or would a vote need to take part in the senate? My understanding is that the supreme court is predominantly republican? and that the president has a vito against any vote taken in congress? So it seems that appealing these laws is nigh on impossible.
The point is that many rights we feel are important in any modern society seem to be slowly disappearing, and that is most worry-some.
Out of curiosity though, what would be the process for people to appeal these laws? Courts -> State court -> Supreme court? Or would a vote need to take part in the senate? My understanding is that the supreme court is predominantly republican? and that the president has a vito against any vote taken in congress? So it seems that appealing these laws is nigh on impossible.
Final_Product said:
Yes, the supreme court is republican 6-3, although Kennedy and Stevens sometimes decide for liberal cases.
There should be talk of impeachment. This is a impeachable offense.
Appear on TV criticizing the president, and you'll find yourself on blacklists that'll cause problems any time you try to get a job.Cythraul said:Nice one. Our ordinary notions of totalitarian and non-totalitarian work just fine. I'd like to know where you get the idea that all governments are totalitarian. I must have been mistaken all my life thinking that I could actually distinguish between various types of government. But no, I was wrong. All the outward behavior of a government in relation to its citizens means absolutely nothing because behind the facade, its actually totalitarian. Furthermore, the fact that somebody can go on television, criticize the president, and not get arrested for it is no evidence of constitutional rights or any of that nonsense; that's all just an illusion.
Can't get a job = don't eat. So, you've got to "stay in line".
Any government is totalitarian because it enforces not only certain laws, but through things such as "disorderly conduct", "seditious speech" and "disturbing the peace", not to mention supporting their "favorite" corporations who then manage to control all of society monetarily, really controls the lifestyles of all of its people.
MyHatred
Chief Ten Beers
Wiretapping should be acceptable only with a warrant. No exceptions. You cannot claim to be setting up a free democratic state on another continent while destroying the democracy in your own country.
derek
Grey Eminence
MasterOLightning
Optimator
I can't help but feel that all of this is only part of the 9/11 backlash, and that by the time a new president comes in, traditional domestic issues will again take precidence and these things will fall by the wayside. Look at the Civil War when Lincoln illegally imprisoned people. This was a measure taken in a dangerous time, and when things calmed down, it no longer occurred. One could argue that terrorism is a permanent issue, but I can see it not being a big deal in maybe 10 years or so.
Remember when we had all of those anthrax scares? How long did it take for that to blow over? There hasn't been an attack in the US since 9/11, and if it stays that way through, say 2010, I say we won't have any worries about losing our rights per se, but more worries about our privacy in general in a world where personal data is so heavily recorded, and our every move will be tracked. The issue will be general privacy from corporations and the government, not restrictions of speech.
I think Cynical is being a bit too conspiratorial. Criticizing the president is the trendy thing to do in America. All the kids and their favorite celebrities/pop punk bands are doing it.
Remember when we had all of those anthrax scares? How long did it take for that to blow over? There hasn't been an attack in the US since 9/11, and if it stays that way through, say 2010, I say we won't have any worries about losing our rights per se, but more worries about our privacy in general in a world where personal data is so heavily recorded, and our every move will be tracked. The issue will be general privacy from corporations and the government, not restrictions of speech.
I think Cynical is being a bit too conspiratorial. Criticizing the president is the trendy thing to do in America. All the kids and their favorite celebrities/pop punk bands are doing it.
derek
Grey Eminence
MasterOLightning said:
Thats why Team America is so funny, when the celebs are commenting on politics, the utter mockery of it
But I sorta agree, I think much of the issue if privacy related, but theres something eerie about the situation as a whole and to what levels a person can be actually "free" in America anymore. The hypocrisy of juxtaposing "land of the free" beside these apparent errosions of freedom is what really gets my goat, more so than the actual bills and laws themselves.
MasterOLightning said:
The problem though, is the fact that terrorism is clearly a perpetual problem. Hence, there will be no armistance, and thus our rights may never be restored.
MasterOLightning said:
Did this trend develop for no reason at all, or did it develop due to outright necessity?
As for terrorism, it's not going away any time soon. The WTC was first attacked in 1993. 8 years later it was attacked again. Just because no attacks on US soil have occured since 9/11 doesn't mean that it's all 'over'. Far from it, actually.
I find it very ironic that someone who takes everything that's written on one website as a priori truths and tries to find justifications for these beliefs only after he had already accepted them calls himself Cynical. Worse yet, saying that if you criticize the president you don't eat... I mean, what the fuck, do you even realize what you're actually saying?MasterOLightning said:
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