Roadrunner and the beginnings of metal...

Yo Bastard:

Metal was created non-linearly.

Many branches, many forks. many highway exits.

The history Europe knows is equally as valid as the history North America learned. Even when NA history CONFLICTS with European designs.

Btw, I'd much rather listen to Wishbone Ash and BOC than anything by Maiden or Sabbath or Priest.
 
Some Bastard said:
:Besides being interested in Metal I am also interested in where it came from, where it originated. The problem seems to be that you and you buddies don’t want to know that it came from something, that it originated somewhere.
If we wanted to go down that route, we could go all the way back to the slave quarters of the Antebellum South, despite My Man's uncomfortableness with this particular topic.

Everything comes from somewhere but that does not make everything the same.

Despite your attempt to make me look narrow and rigorous--the exact opposite is true. Your mode of analysis is that of a musicologist who wants to abstract all the cultural and social landscapes from the equation and turn it into a vacuum of strings, sticks and electric cords to make it a sealed entitiy that is only and exclusively about the music. Not surprising, since you have difficulty making this interpetive leap. Somebody raises the clear as day point that metal has always encompassed literate and political topics you mention Cannibal Corpse instead of conceding the obvious. Or maybe you are just that smug and smarmy

To you metal is just another form of music no different from any other because it makes things much simpler and smoother for you and frees you up to make snide and smug comments about all and sundry and pass it off as caring.

That is why we disagree and will never see eye to eye--not because of the narrow tail you have tried to pin on me. And the circle is complete once again.

Feel free to make an eclectic open-minded comp to listen to as you stew about how I'm so simple-minded to occupy your time.
 
BenMech said:
Yo Bastard:

Metal was created non-linearly.

Many branches, many forks. many highway exits.
That's what I'm saying
BenMech said:
The history Europe knows is equally as valid as the history North America learned. Even when NA history CONFLICTS with European designs.
But does it really?
BenMech said:
Btw, I'd much rather listen to Wishbone Ash and BOC than anything by Maiden or Sabbath or Priest.
I love 'em all :headbang:
 
DBB said:
Everything comes from somewhere but that does not make everything the same.
...and I never said that :rolleyes:

You just love that victim role, don't you? :rolleyes: Whining that I attempt to make you look narrow and rigorous, yet at the same time attempting to make me look 'smug and smarmy', meanwhile ignoring what I'm actually saying :puke:

To me Metal is not "just" another form of music no different from any other but like I said, I'm interested in facts, not fiction.
 
the fact is that Black Sabbath did not set out to 'invent' Heavy Metal. They were basically an electric blues band with a twist.

And the 'twist' was that they dialed down the blues elements and ripped metal from the bloated corpse of rock. This is the aesthetic history of metal - the progressive growth of an artform rooted in EUROPEAN cultural traditions, and the progressive removal non-European cultural elements as metal increasingly embraced a classical/Romantic ideal.
 
Progressive rock has a lot of similarities with metal. Some of the same purposes. The idea of self identity, excellence, esapism, and often some more fantastical lyrics.

Try classifying bands like Scorpions, and Whitesnake. Some call them 'hard-rock' others 'pop-metal'. What's the difference? What was different from them and bands like Judas Priest? Its not sonically so much. Its part attitude, and part lyrical content.

Heavy Metal songs have existed for a while. They certaintly weren't called that. Sabbath was not consciously making a heavy metal album. Because the concept of Heavy Metal did not exist back then. Consciously though, they made an album with a certain attitude, one we call Heavy Metal. This attitude is the same as later Heavy Metal bands. Sonically they are different perhaps. And yes they incorporated blues elements (nothing wrong with blues scales in heavy metal). But that does not stop us from pointing back to them and calling them 'heavy metal.' Perhaps the reason that Black Sabbath doesn't want to be called heavy metal, is because they don't really know what heavy metal means, and hate how the term has been distorted.

Also, they probably don't consider themselves as being like some of the other bands that became to be known as heavy metal.
 
Cheiron said:
Perhaps the reason that Black Sabbath doesn't want to be called heavy metal, is because they don't really know what heavy metal means, and hate how the term has been distorted.

Also, they probably don't consider themselves as being like some of the other bands that became to be known as heavy metal.

When G/Z//R's Plastic Planet came out in 1995, Butler made it quite clear that he was aware, and how he was unhappy that Black Sabbath wasn't staying competitive with the younger bands in terms of heaviness. He hated that Black Sabbath had instead turned into "Deep Purple Mark [whatever number he used]".

(you bastards are making me wish I hadn't tossed most of my metal mags before moving out here... argh)

Of course, he also said he'd never rejoin Black Sabbath.
 
Speaking of which, In Rock came out the same year as Black Sabbath. And although they're both great albums there is not one riff on Black Sabbath that's as utterly Metal as "Hard Lovin' Man", the closing track on In Rock. Likewise In Rock doesn't have bluesy rock tunes like "The Wizard" or "N.I.B."

But somehow recent musical history has dictated that Deep Purple can't be part of Heavy Metal history anymore, even though they once were. Why is that? Perhaps because over the years they have mellowed with age and are now grey old stadium rockers? And it is therefore not 'hip' anymore to be influenced by them, even though Heavy Metal would have sounded completely different without them?

Like I said, I wonder what Heavy Metal history will look like in 2016
 
BenMech said:
#of full lengths studio albums put out by Deep Purple since 1990: ___
#of full lengths studio albums put out by Black Sabbath since 1990: ___

the answers will speak for themselves.
What does their post-1990-output have to do with anything?
 
Some Bastard said:
But somehow recent musical history has dictated that Deep Purple can't be part of Heavy Metal history anymore, even though they once were. Why is that? Perhaps because over the years they have mellowed with age and are now grey old stadium rockers? And it is therefore not 'hip' anymore to be influenced by them, even though Heavy Metal would have sounded completely different without them?

I don't know... I don't think people are denying Deep Purple's place, it's just a bit of trouble figuring out exactly where it is. They're part of the mythology but not seen as part of the whole thing. Same with Uriah Heep, whereas Led Zeppelin these days seems to be keep at several arms' length from "metal", with BOC being somewhere in between. I get the feeling they are all far more respected outside of the US though than in the US (well, not sure about BOC).

It's pretty obvious why Sabbath gets put into heavy metal unquestionably and it's all Paranoid. Black Sabbath (the album) may not be the most metal thing ever on Planet Earth, but Iron Man certainly has a riff more metal than anything Deep Purple ever did.
 
I've said it several times now: I'm not denying Sabbath's influence at all. But I do think stating that they singlehandedly invented Heavy Metal is romanticizing things a bit. It's also a different view on Heavy Metal than was common in the 80's (at least in Europe). Deep Purple most definitely were seen as part of the whole thing then. So what happened?

As for Led Zeppelin, although songs like "Dazed and Confused" and "Communication Breakdown" could be described as 'proto-metal', only a very small part of their output actually qualifies as Hard Rock. And that happens to be the part they're best known for. The heavy drum sound was always there but you won't find any brutal riffage on later albums like Houses Of The Holy or In Through The Out Door. Besides that, their big followers now are not Metal bands but bands like Wolfmother and The Raconteurs. Overall I think Zeppelin are more Art Rock than Hard Rock.
 
Some Bastard said:
Speaking of which, In Rock came out the same year as Black Sabbath. And although they're both great albums there is not one riff on Black Sabbath that's as utterly Metal as "Hard Lovin' Man", the closing track on In Rock. Likewise In Rock doesn't have bluesy rock tunes like "The Wizard" or "N.I.B."

1. Metal has never at any point been reducible to a single sonic signature. If 'metal' riffs = metal, then Disturbed is a thousand times more metal than anything Deep Purple has ever done. But that's not how it works. Instead, metal is a full fledged artform - not an aesthetic alone, but a movement in which execution and ideal go hand in hand. Heavy metal is 'heavy' because of its sound: it is also 'heavy' at the conceptual level. While Sabbath's aesthetic expression during those formative years (1970-75) was clearly heavier and more consistent than anything produced by their supposed competitors, where they really seperated themselves from the pack was at the conceptual level. Nothing in the work of any of their contemporaries remotely approaches the suffocating exestential blackness of "Black Sabbath," "Electric Funeral," "Hand of Doom," "Children of the Grave," "Lord of This World," "Killing Yourself to Live," and "Hole in the Sky," among others. Black Sabbath isn't considered the well spring JUST because they created the basic outline of metal's sound, but also are responsible for the fundamental philosophical direction of the genre. Deep Purple contributed nothing of significance, and only enter into this discussion because they were in the right place at the right time playing somewhat distorted rock music.

2. Sabbath's creation of heavy metal took place over the course of several albums - what happened after 1970 is at least as important as what happened in that year. And here is where it becomes crystal fucking clear how much more significant Sabbath was than any other band of the era.

3. "Black Sabbath" and "N.I.B." are both infinitely heavier than anything on In Rock.

But somehow recent musical history has dictated that Deep Purple can't be part of Heavy Metal history anymore, even though they once were.

No, they were never metal. There was just a time when people didn't understand the historical arc of the genre enough to properly place certain early bands.

Why is that? Perhaps because over the years they have mellowed with age and are now grey old stadium rockers?

No, because the accretion of bands and experience over the years has made it much more clear than it once was that Deep Purple fundamentally diverged from what was to become heavy metal.

And it is therefore not 'hip' anymore to be influenced by them, even though Heavy Metal would have sounded completely different without them?

There isn't a single metal band of any significance with a discernible Deep Purple (or Uriah Heep or Led Zeppelin or BOC) influence. To suggest that they substantially impacted the genre's sound in any way is fucking ludicrous.

The irony, of course, is that there is a "Big Three" so to speak (Sabbath, Priest and Motorhead - all subsequent metal is in some sense derived from a combination of these bands), but the only actual member which you identified (Black Sabbath) is the one whose influence you seek to minimize.
 
Mahmoud, have you ever listened to Uriah Heep's Demons and Wizards? If you can't think of a few metal bands that took some influence from that album, I'm not sure what you listen to.
 
I do not seek to 'minimize' any band's influence and I have repeatedly said that I do not deny Black Sabbath's influence. But saying that they singlehandedly invented Heavy Metal is an oversimplification.

Boring or not (but I beg to differ), the dry ice and sword & sorcery antics and other beloved cliches associated with a large portion of Heavy Metal came directly from Uriah Heep.

People here seem to disagree about what defines 'Heavy'. That's OK though. These are opinions, not facts. "N.I.B." heavier than anything by Deep Purple? Sure. Fine. Whatever. For a supposedly early Heavy Metal track it's still awfully close to Cream's "Sunshine Of Your Love", and from what I've heard Sabbath doesn't deny it either. Not much of those blues leanings on In Rock.

Furthermore although definitely influential Motorhead never were a Metal band. They may have incorporated some Metal ingredients in recent years but their earlier, more influential work is no more Metal than the Ramones, the Sex Pistols, The Damned, AC/DC or MC5.
 
Some Bastard said:
I do not seek to 'minimize' any band's influence and I have repeatedly said that I do not deny Black Sabbath's influence. But saying that they singlehandedly invented Heavy Metal is an oversimplification.

How so? The rough outlines (both in aesthetic and concept) of the genre did not exist before Sabbath, but were defined by them, while the other supposed early contributors left little if any lasting mark on the genre.

Boring or not (but I beg to differ), the dry ice and sword & sorcery antics and other beloved cliches associated with a large portion of Heavy Metal came directly from Uriah Heep.

Most of early 'sword and sorcery' oriented bands in metal drew their inspiration from literary sources. This was a continuation of the gothic horror theme that had been an integral part of metal from the first bar of "Black Sabbath". In any event, the primary vector for fantasy themed lyrical content in later metal was not Uriah Heep (a band no one listened to then or now), but Ronnie James Dio, through his work with Rainbow, Sabbath and his early solo albums.

People here seem to disagree about what defines 'Heavy'. That's OK though. These are opinions, not facts.

No, sorry, these are facts, as can be easily ascertained by any intelligent person who cares to investigate the genre objectively. The fact that you personally prefer Eurofag buttrock to actual metal really doesn't change that reality.

"N.I.B." heavier than anything by Deep Purple? Sure. Fine. Whatever. For a supposedly early Heavy Metal track it's still awfully close to Cream's "Sunshine Of Your Love", and from what I've heard Sabbath doesn't deny it either.

How so? It's not a blues progression.

Furthermore although definitely influential Motorhead never were a Metal band. They may have incorporated some Metal ingredients in recent years but their earlier, more influential work is no more Metal than the Ramones, the Sex Pistols, The Damned, AC/DC or MC5.

This is the dumbest thing I've seen on these forums in quite some time, and considering that I've seen people praise Cannibal Corpse, that's really saying something. You can draw a direct line of descent from Sabbath, to Motorhead (who explored the same basic themes as Sabbath using riffs that were essentially Sabbath riffs sped up and palm muted for rhythmic emphasis), to all current extreme metal. Motorhead was popular with punks, but their music and concept was clearly and unmistakably metal in a way that their punk admirers were not. You're grasping at straws at this point.
 
My Man Mahmoud said:
How so? The rough outlines (both in aesthetic and concept) of the genre did not exist before Sabbath, but were defined by them, while the other supposed early contributors left little if any lasting mark on the genre.
Do I really have to repeat myself here?
My Man Mahmoud said:
Most of early 'sword and sorcery' oriented bands in metal drew their inspiration from literary sources. This was a continuation of the gothic horror theme that had been an integral part of metal from the first bar of "Black Sabbath". In any event, the primary vector for fantasy themed lyrical content in later metal was not Uriah Heep (a band no one listened to then or now), but Ronnie James Dio, through his work with Rainbow, Sabbath and his early solo albums.
The Heep (pretty polular here then) were at least five years earlier than Rainbow. Ronnie was still in a band called Elf then and they weren't Metal at all. Look it up if you like.
My Man Mahmoud said:
No, sorry, these are facts, as can be easily ascertained by any intelligent person who cares to investigate the genre objectively. The fact that you personally prefer Eurofag buttrock to actual metal really doesn't change that reality.
:lol: Do I? How so?
My Man Mahmoud said:
How so? It's not a blues progression.
Maybe it would help if you actually listened to the songs discussed here. You must be deaf to not hear the similarities.
My Man Mahmoud said:
This is the dumbest thing I've seen on these forums in quite some time, and considering that I've seen people praise Cannibal Corpse, that's really saying something. You can draw a direct line of descent from Sabbath, to Motorhead (who explored the same basic themes as Sabbath using riffs that were essentially Sabbath riffs sped up and palm muted for rhythmic emphasis), to all current extreme metal. Motorhead was popular with punks, but their music and concept was clearly and unmistakably metal in a way that their punk admirers were not. You're grasping at straws at this point.
Really? Let's see what Lemmy himself has to say:
"Let’s face it, the only reason we were called Heavy Metal is because we had long hair. If it wasn’t for the long hair, we would be in the punk rack. I always thought we had more in common with The Damned than we did with Judas Priest."

Lemmy on Heavy Metal:
"I would guess it came in with Deep Purple. They were the first one with the wall of sound. Deep Purple did it when they played songs like "Speed King." Sabbath came along and slowed it down a lot. I used to call it dirge. It was their thing but I never liked Sabbath."

Yep, there you have it. Even though being friends with Ozzy Lemmy does NOT like Black Sabbath and is NOT influenced by them in any way. He has repeatedly said so in countless interviews, like I told you before. Can't help it if you don't believe me.

And you would hear that if you actually listened to those early Motorhead records. But my guess is you don't even know them, do you? However loud they may be, those are Chuck Berry riffs, not Sabbath ones.

Do your homework before you talk out of your ass :rolleyes: