Roadrunner and the beginnings of metal...

[Cheiron]

Ya know. This reminds me somewhat of arguments over who was the first alternative music band. People seem to enjoy saying that Nirvana started alternative music. And yet, they then list REM as alternative. Or a number of much older bands than Nirvana.

Anyhow. Back on subject.

Deep Purple had huge influences on metal. To deny it is just ignorance. Do they have much influence on modern day death/black metal? No. Not really. But did they have a lot of influence on early to mid metal bands? Yes. Do they have a bit of influence on some newer bands? Of course. Do these bands even realize this? Probably not.

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

Do I really have to repeat myself here?

The Heep (pretty polular here then) were at least five years earlier than Rainbow. Ronnie was still in a band called Elf then and they weren't Metal at all. Look it up if you like.

Totally meaningless. As I've already pointed out - most of the early uses of fantasy lyrics came either from literary inspiration or make use of an occult/horror slant that can be clearly traced to Sabbath. The explosion of sword and sorcery bands in the mid-1980s came from bands who weren't responding to Uriah Heep, but to Dio, Iron Maiden, Manowar and other early 1980s stalwarts.

In any event, it's entirely possible for certain elements to be arrived at independently, and given the other preoccupations of metal, fantasy-type lyrics are a pretty obvious move. In fact we've seen at least two major (and totally unrelated) explosions of fantasy-themed metal since the mid-80s: power metal and 'viking metal' (possibly a third, if one counts the Slavonic black metal scene). To somehow suggest that this wouldn't have happened without Uriah Heep is stupid.

On the flipside, it's hard to imagine metal developing the way it has without Black Sabbath. The same cannot be said for any of the other bands you've trotted out in this discussion.

Do I? How so?

Deep Purple? Led Zeppelin (who you initially argued were included in some mythical 'Big Three,' then went back and wrote out again - clever of you, since there's absolutely no way of defending their alleged contribution to metal

Maybe it would help if you actually listened to the songs discussed here. You must be deaf to not hear the similarities.

Here are the similarities: both songs use a distorted electric guitar. The actual riffs themselves aren't similar at all.

Really? Let's see what Lemmy himself has to say:
"Let’s face it, the only reason we were called Heavy Metal is because we had long hair. If it wasn’t for the long hair, we would be in the punk rack. I always thought we had more in common with The Damned than we did with Judas Priest."

Lemmy on Heavy Metal:
"I would guess it came in with Deep Purple. They were the first one with the wall of sound. Deep Purple did it when they played songs like "Speed King." Sabbath came along and slowed it down a lot. I used to call it dirge. It was their thing but I never liked Sabbath."

Artists are notoriously ill-equipped to analyze their own work, and this is no exception. I defy anyone to point to a discernible Deep Purple influence on ANY classic Motorhead track.

On the other hand, the Sabbath references on those key albums (Overkill, Bomber and Ace of Spades) are all over the place (case in point: "Damage Case," which very nearly replicates the main riff of "Hole in the Sky").

Bottom line - what artists say about their work is significant...when it is actually borne out by the work itself.

Yep, there you have it. Even though being friends with Ozzy Lemmy does NOT like Black Sabbath and is NOT influenced by them in any way. He has repeatedly said so in countless interviews, like I told you before. Can't help it if you don't believe me.

And I can't help if Lemmy's words don't actually match the reality of his music.

And you would hear that if you actually listened to those early Motorhead records. But my guess is you don't even know them, do you? However loud they may be, those are Chuck Berry riffs, not Sabbath ones.

That's true of their earliest records (Motorhead and On Parole), but it's not at all true of their most influential classics (again, Overkill, Bomber and Ace of Spades).

 

[Some Bastard]

Totally meaningless. As I've already pointed out - most of the early uses of fantasy lyrics came either from literary inspiration or make use of an occult/horror slant that can be clearly traced to Sabbath. The explosion of sword and sorcery bands in the mid-1980s came from bands who weren't responding to Uriah Heep, but to Dio, Iron Maiden, Manowar and other early 1980s stalwarts.

How old are you?

Believe it or not but there were S&S/Fantasy-themed bands before Dio, Iron Maiden, Manowar and other early 1980s stalwarts. Most notably Rainbow, Rush and yes, Uriah Heep. Probably unheard of in your neck of the woods but pretty popular and influential on this side of the pond. Prog rock had an influence too.

In any event, it's entirely possible for certain elements to be arrived at independently

Congratulations! That's what I have been saying all along! And that's one of the reasons I don't think Heavy Metal materialized out of thin air with the arrival of Black Sabbath.

Deep Purple? Led Zeppelin (who you initially argued were included in some mythical 'Big Three,' then went back and wrote out again - clever of you, since there's absolutely no way of defending their alleged contribution to metal

Nope, you're mixing things up. Zeppelin were considered one of the big three, still are according to some critics. I didn't make that up. I just gave my personal opinion on Zeppelin and their place in HM history.

Here are the similarities: both songs use a distorted electric guitar. The actual riffs themselves aren't similar at all.

That's either a flat out lie or you don't know that song by Cream

Artists are notoriously ill-equipped to analyze their own work, and this is no exception. I defy anyone to point to a discernible Deep Purple influence on ANY classic Motorhead track.

That's not what Lemmy says. Read carefully

On the other hand, the Sabbath references on those key albums (Overkill, Bomber and Ace of Spades) are all over the place (case in point: "Damage Case," which very nearly replicates the main riff of "Hole in the Sky").

Allright, what's the catch? I'm starting to believe the only real "fantasy" element here is you. Even Uriah Heep couldn't have thought up something like your version of HM history

"Case in point" he says

Bottom line - what artists say about their work is significant...when it is actually borne out by the work itself.

And I can't help if Lemmy's words don't actually match the reality of his music.

Just like I can't help I value Lemmy's opinion more than Mahmoud's :Smug:

That's true of their earliest records (Motorhead and On Parole), but it's not at all true of their most influential classics (again, Overkill, Bomber and Ace of Spades).

What you mean is you don't know who Chuck Berry is and what his riffs sound like :Smug:

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

Believe it or not but there were S&S/Fantasy-themed bands before Dio, Iron Maiden, Manowar and other early 1980s stalwarts. Most notably Rainbow, Rush and yes, Uriah Heep. Probably unheard of in your neck of the woods but pretty popular and influential on this side of the pond. Prog rock had an influence too.

And the only one of those bands that ever crossed the line into metal was Rainbow, with lyrics by (drumroll please)...Ronnie James Dio. Oops, looks like you overlooked reality yet again.

Congratulations! That's what I have been saying all along! And that's one of the reasons I don't think Heavy Metal materialized out of thin air with the arrival of Black Sabbath.

Go back and read what I wrote. It is entirely within the realm of credibility for a single trait to evolve independently among more than one band. It isn't within the realm of credibility to suggest that an entire genre could evolve independently more than once.

The bottom line is this: before Black Sabbath, no band had even come close to putting together the basic aesthetic and conceptual elements we understand to make up 'heavy metal.' Black Sabbath put those elements together in a single coherent package. None of their contemporaries did. Ergo - Black Sabbath is THE beginning of heavy metal.

Nope, you're mixing things up. Zeppelin were considered one of the big three, still are according to some critics. I didn't make that up. I just gave my personal opinion on Zeppelin and their place in HM history.

You introduced the idea of a 'big three' as evidence that Sabbath weren't the originators of heavy metal (apparently on the idea that if someone said so, it must be true), now you're saying that Zep didn't really play a role. You can't have it both ways.

That's either a flat out lie or you don't know that song by Cream

The riffs have different chord progressions, different tempos and different rhythmic patterns. Throw in much thicker distortion and Sabbath's downtuning, and only an idiot would say they're similar. And let's not forget that the songs could not possibly be more different thematically, that N.I.B. is hardly the only song on the album, and that Sabbath's legacy is hardly limited to their debut.

That's not what Lemmy says. Read carefully

And if Lemmy said the sky is green, does that make it so? The test is reality - and the reality in this case is that the classic era of Motorhead betrays a

Allright, what's the catch? I'm starting to believe the only real "fantasy" element here is you. Even Uriah Heep couldn't have thought up something like your version of HM history

To take a leaf from your book (but with a twist: I'm actually right), the only way you could deny the similarity is if you're unfamiliar with one or both songs.

Just like I can't help I value Lemmy's opinion more than Mahmoud's :Smug:

This isn't my 'opinion,' it's a statement of objective fact. Good of you to go for the easy logical fallacy though.

What you mean is you don't know who Chuck Berry is and what his riffs sound like :Smug:

Oh, you mean the monkey that banged out "Johnny B. Goode" and "Roll Over Beethoven" and assorted other up tempo romps through the good ol' I IV V?

I guess he was too busy pimping out 14 year olds to do anything other than recycle old blues riffs for a new audience.

 

[BenMech]

my penis is bigger and more potent than yours

then

no, my penis is thicker and has been shooting bullets longer than yours

 

[Jim LotFP]

Anyone interested in the time period that hasn't heard any of the bands discussed... should. And I think this discussion could inspire people to do that.

Now if anybody not familiar with these bands at all would actually come around here in the first place, we could be getting somewhere.

 

[DBB]

Listen to Cirith Ungol.

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

Strangely, I had just put on Frost and Fire about 2 minutes before reading your post, Dave.

 

[Some Bastard]

And the only one of those bands that ever crossed the line into metal was Rainbow, with lyrics by (drumroll please)...Ronnie James Dio. Oops, looks like you overlooked reality yet again.

Speaking of 'reality', You think Rainbow are 'Metal' and Purple and Heep are not? Now I'm confused

You introduced the idea of a 'big three' as evidence that Sabbath weren't the originators of heavy metal (apparently on the idea that if someone said so, it must be true), now you're saying that Zep didn't really play a role. You can't have it both ways.

Like I said, that idea wasn't introduced by me. Pretty hard huh, reading?

And if Lemmy said the sky is green, does that make it so? The test is reality - and the reality in this case is that the classic era of Motorhead betrays a

I don't think Lemmy ever said the sky was green. That would be ridiculous. now go and finish your sentence like a good boy

Oh, you mean the monkey that banged out "Johnny B. Goode" and "Roll Over Beethoven" and assorted other up tempo romps through the good ol' I IV V?

A-ha! I see. So you're a racist. Thank you. Now I'm not that confused anymore. In fact, that explains a lot

We could discuss this till the end of time but the basic discussion boils down to this:
Apparently some people here have the need to believe that Heavy Metal and its history is etched in stone. Therefore they also need to believe that Heavy Metal has only one beginning (Black Sabbath) and is defined by very strict borders (with death/black/grind on the left and traditional on the right or something) Thus it is unacceptable for them that there has also been Heavy Metal that had little or nothing to do with Black Sabbath, that the sound of a very influential band like Motorhead actually went back to before Black Sabbath and that the histories of Hard Rock and Heavy Metal overlapped until the arrival of more extreme forms of Metal (at least here in Europe)

Myth-making at its finest. The truth of course is that the development of Heavy Metal as a genre has largely been a chaotic and accidental one. If that wasn't the case its history wouldn't keep changing with the times and we would all be in agreement here.

I don't feel like Cirith Ungol now. Is it OK if just put on some Manilla Road?

 

[Jim LotFP]

Apparently some people here have the need to believe that Heavy Metal and its history is etched in stone.

For me, this is true. The trick is not constantly rewriting history, but finding the history that doesn't need to be rewritten.

However, the above quote has nothing to do with this one:

Therefore they also need to believe that Heavy Metal has only one beginning (Black Sabbath)

... and neither of the above quotes has anything to do with this quote:

and is defined by very strict borders (with death/black/grind on the left and traditional on the right or something)

Even though I do believe this last one to be more or less true. There are borders! It's figuring out where they are that is the point, not setting up a giant wall on that border.

Thus it is unacceptable for them that there has also been Heavy Metal that had little or nothing to do with Black Sabbath,

Incorrect. I'd LOVE for Black Sabbath to have nothing to do with heavy metal simply because I fucking hate Ozzy Osbourne's voice. I was a Sabbath denier for years. The search for something else led me to a lot of great bands though.

But if there is a history that bypasses Sabbath, awesome. Fucking awesome!

that the sound of a very influential band like Motorhead actually went back to before Black Sabbath

Means nothing. I came from my mother and my father, but I am not my mother nor am I my father. At some point, somebody took influences that were not metal and made metal out of them. That someone says "Black Sabbath is the first heavy metal band" does not mean they don't recognize where Black Sabbath came from, it just means they recognize that Sabbath was in some fundamental way different.

and that the histories of Hard Rock and Heavy Metal overlapped until the arrival of more extreme forms of Metal (at least here in Europe)

Obviously they overlap. Is this the first time you're recognizing that they also diverge? And are you claiming Venom as that divergent point here?

 

[Some Bastard]

For me, this is true. The trick is not constantly rewriting history, but finding the history that doesn't need to be rewritten.

I'm not into trickery, I'm into facts

Even though I do believe this last one to be more or less true. There are borders! It's figuring out where they are that is the point, not setting up a giant wall on that border.

If there actually were borders you wouldn't need to figure out where they are, would you? :Smug:

Means nothing. I came from my mother and my father, but I am not my mother nor am I my father. At some point, somebody took influences that were not metal and made metal out of them. That someone says "Black Sabbath is the first heavy metal band" does not mean they don't recognize where Black Sabbath came from, it just means they recognize that Sabbath was in some fundamental way different.

I wasn't talking about Black Sabbath, I was talking about Motorhead and that their sound basically had nothing to do with Black Sabbath.

Obviously they overlap. Is this the first time you're recognizing that they also diverge? And are you claiming Venom as that divergent point here?

Hmm, not sure. Venom surely divided the people who were into Heavy Metal, but there's still some rock'n'roll influences there. Listen to Black Metal. There's even a blues break (sort of) in "Teacher's Pet". Compared to your average Norwegian band they virtually sound like a pub rock band.

 

[DBB]

I'm not into trickery, I'm into facts.

You are into arguing whatever point needs to be made to prove something doesn't have anything to with metal as the need arises in the course of a debate. Not into trickery. Your posts are one large stream of rhetorical tricks. Black Sabbath is an "electric blues band." Venom and Holocaust are "pub rock bands."

I wonder what you will be saying about heavy metal in 2016.

 

[Some Bastard]

Another debating 'trick' is lifting someone's comments out of its original context:

Black Sabbath is an "electric blues band."

You forgot "started out as"

Venom and Holocaust are "pub rock bands."

You forgot "compared to what we now know as Heavy Metal"

Another debating 'trick' is being selective in what one responds to, like you keep doing. Even Mahmoud has more balls than that, misguided as some of his views may be

I wonder what you will be saying about heavy metal in 2016.

Me too. Really.

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

Speaking of 'reality', You think Rainbow are 'Metal' and Purple and Heep are not? Now I'm confused

Risings and Long Live Rock n' Roll are both shitloads heavier than any Purple or Heep album (sonically OR conceptually).

Like I said, that idea wasn't introduced by me. Pretty hard huh, reading?

You introduced the concept to this discussion? Or are you trying to rewrite history again?

A-ha! I see. So you're a racist. Thank you. Now I'm not that confused anymore. In fact, that explains a lot

Not at all - those songs are monkey music regardless of who wrote or performed them (much as Elvis's similar vintage material was).

Apparently some people here have the need to believe that Heavy Metal and its history is etched in stone.

History, in a sense, is ALWAYS etched in stone. Once something happens, it cannot unhappen. It's a fixed point in reality. The question is sussing out what actually happened, a process that can and does lead to revisions at times.

Therefore they also need to believe that Heavy Metal has only one beginning (Black Sabbath)

All things have a beginning - this is a basic fact of the universe. The beginning may be open to interpretation, but it is there.

and is defined by very strict borders (with death/black/grind on the left and traditional on the right or something)

No one has called for 'strict' borders. On the other hand, if the term 'heavy metal' is to have any meaning - particulary in the face of repeated attempts to appropriate the genre for commercial purposes - we can't include bands that dissipate the coherence of the term as a concept. If we include Deep Purple, then we have to include Korn, Atreyu, and Poison, all of whom deviate less from the metal norm than Purple does. Alternately, we could just be honest with ourselves and admit that it makes no sense to include ANY of those bands - including Deep Purple and Uriah Heep - under the banner of 'metal.'

that the sound of a very influential band like Motorhead actually went back to before Black Sabbath

Some of the sound of Black Sabbath went back before Black Sabbath - but that's not the point. The combination of elements that made Black Sabbath metal first appeared in...Black Sabbath - and it is those same elements, inhereited (consciously or not) from Sabbath that make Motorhead metal as well.

and that the histories of Hard Rock and Heavy Metal overlapped until the arrival of more extreme forms of Metal (at least here in Europe)

There is no such thing as 'hard rock' - it was purely a marketing term, one created to appropriate some of the cachet of heavy metal for music that was more commercially acceptable. Congratulations on being gulled by the label bosses!

Myth-making at its finest. The truth of course is that the development of Heavy Metal as a genre has largely been a chaotic and accidental one.

And this precludes it having a particular beginning how? ALL evolutionary events are 'chaotic' and 'accidental' - but there's always the point at which a new form is born. The ur-band, the Eve, the Big Bang - whatever.

 

[Cheiron]

Mahmoud, what genre would you put bands that people call hard rock then?
Hard Rock seems to me to generally be sonically metal -sans the attitude. Just call it rock then?

 

[DBB]

Furthermore although definitely influential Motorhead never were a Metal band.

Motorhead cannot be metal?

If you want to be a pedantic prig and try limit it to the first few albums and mouth empty and unconnected ideas about Chuck Berry, I cannot stop you from engaging this in this gymnastic act--but is a contortion and a distortion no matter how you frame it.

You do not know how to employ evidence, you have to collect and collate many things--not just what a particular individual, who may very well be at the heart of things, has to say about things.

After the dissolution of the classic line-up, Where did Lemmy draw new members from?

Saxon’s Pete Gill. King Diamond’s Mikky Dee. Persian Risk’s Phil Campbell. The Warfare-affiliated Wurzel….Metal Anarchy anyone? Who was the producer on this album?

Why these musicians? What effect did they have on the band? Why did they share mutual ground, sound and spirit with Lemmy?

Sometimes logical and natural questions flowing from a series of events can provide answers.

Given this roster of replacements, one can almost also excuse the often made "technical" mistake of classifying Motorhead as part of the NWOBHM. Since at one point they were almost a NWOBHM band by default and composition.

Albums like Orgasmatron, Bastards, Sacrifice, We are Motorhead Inferno are all firmly rooted in the signature Motorhead sound and metal (even you cannot evade this and have resort to saying well.. “they may have incorporated some metal elements,” but not following through with your veiled admission made in the act of trying to cover your backside with another rhetorical trick).

Again, and at risk at repeating myself, everything comes from something and everything evolves, but that does not make everything the same.

Motorhead has appealed to numerous audiences over the years, but the one which has vocally supported and remained most loyal as a collective entity are metalheads (not just talking about the “classic” line-up, but everything).

Motorhead has also tended to be affiliated with labels known as metal labels over the course of their career.

I could go on and on and draw on similar things from different fields and provide more details to the ones above…but you see what I’m driving at and will refuse to look at the bigger picture--remaining mired in an antiquarian mode instead of a historical one. Or to put it another way: being trivial instead analytical in order to score debating points and make arguments as the need arises.

I'll be back later....I'm sure this will still be being bumped.

 

[DBB]

Another debating 'trick' is being selective in what one responds to, like you keep doing. Even Mahmoud has more balls than that, misguided as some of his views may be.

One last thing that I missed last time around. I'm basing my statements on everything that you have said in the past, not just what you are typing here for the sake of argument and convenience now. Your orginal postions waaaaaaay back at the beginning and your declarations and classifications here are what I'm drawing on--not the sea of qualifications you make to soften the import of these statements and core of the end goal you are driving at.

 

[Some Bastard]

I still take Lemmy's opinion over yours

BTW, Like I said Saxon's brand of Metal had very little to do with Sabbath, Warfare were a punk band and a bad one at that and have you ever actually heard Persian Risk?

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

Another debating 'trick' is being selective in what one responds to, like you keep doing. Even Mahmoud has more balls than that, misguided as some of his views may be.

More likely, he just doesn't feel like duplicating work that others have already done.

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

I have clearly been pwned, but maybe if I throw in some emoticons and a little feigned contempt, no one will notice.

FAIL