Roadrunner and the beginnings of metal...
- Thread starter Jim LotFP
- Start date
I don't know who you are. Not that that matters. But I think you are quite wrong. I for one have listened to every band that I have mentioned in this thread. Often repeatedly. I bet others here have too. I'd like to see more reasons that you believe that this is the case, that you don't think others have?
I do agree with you that we haven't gone through all the different types of 'inspirations'. As for AC/DC of course they had influence. And you are right, we had not mentioned them.
But if you believe that we are completely wrong, please enlighten us. Who was the first heavy metal band? Where did heavy metal come from?
Not only have I heard all the songs mentioned here, I actually own all the albums they're on.
But still I could use a little enlightenment as well
But still I could use a little enlightenment as well
So you can listen to your metal without any bad conscience, as it has no roots in the blues and black culture...
Like I said, the first Black Sabbath definitely has its roots in the blues (and therefore in black culture). In fact, all rock music has its roots in blues (and therefore black culture). That those roots are hardly audible anymore is entirely another matter.
And anyway, why would I have a bad conscience about that?
And anyway, why would I have a bad conscience about that?
I agree with some of the premises here, and with some of the conclusions, but not in matched pairs! I guess my initial remarks were a bit strong, as I've just re-read the entire thread and found it much easier to follow this time around. I do apologize for offending anyone in the course of my initial post. I have read these threads on and off for some months, and I respect the LotFP community.
So.
To name the "first heavy metal band" requires an agreed-upon definition of what constitutes heavy metal. Will we treat musical elements only? Costuming? Lyrical content? Marketing as such? Performance?
It's an impossible task. A fool's errand. Once songs are recorded and packaged, they've become inextricable from their commercial context, and it's easy to get lost in the weave of images, slogans, and associations while examining the music. And the task becomes all the more difficult as our hindsight grows.
Anyway, if we're looking for the first album, musically speaking, that 1) embodies ALL fundamentals of heavy metal and 2) contains NO elements that are not heavy metal, the answer is simple: Lightning to the Nations. Sad Wings of Destiny fails the second test, and most Ozzy-era Sabbath fails both.
As for my comments about people not having heard a lot of the music being discussed, I predicated that remark on the absurdity of several statements which are scattered variously throughout this thread. Initially I was paying no attention to who wrote what, but it seems now the particularly daft remarks are disseminating primarily from the same individual.
Some highlights:
"There isn't a single metal band of any significance with a discernible Deep Purple (or Uriah Heep or Led Zeppelin or BOC) influence. To suggest that they substantially impacted the genre's sound in any way is fucking ludicrous."
* Diamond Head is abundantly significant (unless you don't think Metallica is significant) and was musically influenced by Led Zeppelin. I'm not referring to the extensive documentation of that lineage, I'm referring to the fact that anyone without shit in his or her ears can hear it plainly.
* Mercyful Fate were heavily influenced by Uriah Heep, as were the first generation of German power metal bands. Again. It's AUDIBLE as well as documented.
* Scores of NWOBHM bands, some prominent, some not, have a marked Deep Purple influence: Angel Witch, Blitzkrieg, Dawnwatcher, Trident, the list goes on.
"Motorhead (who explored the same basic themes as Sabbath using riffs that were essentially Sabbath riffs sped up and palm muted for rhythmic emphasis)"
* Not sure whether "themes" refers to musical or lyrical ones, but this is incorect in either case. The fundaments of Motorhead's sound, as heard on On Parole and the self-titled album, owed nothing to Sabbath. They were left over from Lemmy's days in Hawkwind (a couple written back in 1972) and cribbed from Larry Wallis's catalog of unused material while he was playing in the Pink Fairies. Besides, Sabbath's use of space ("The Wizard"), sustain ("Black Sabbath"), unison playing ("Snowblind") can't be found in Motorhead, with occasional exceptions such as the intro to "White Line Fever" being played in unison. Motorhead also never used riffs as narrative material in their songs the way Sabbath did (and do.) The singer got a break for a short guitar solo, that's it.
You have to look to Hawkwind themselves, MC5, Hendrix, ZZ Top, and British Invasion-era rock to find Motorhead's roots. Oh yeah, and Thin Lizzy, where the drums are concerned. Once Eddie Clarke was in the band (1977) the covers in their repetoire also played a formative role in the body of original material soon to come -- they played ZZ Top, John Mayall, and a Holland/Dozier/Holland track regularly. Also, there's precious little palm-muting in Motorhead until you get into their 90s period. Maybe to pad the verses in a track like "Shoot You in the Back", but this is generally a fader in the mix rather than a matter of performance.
Anyway, I don't think it's fair to say that Black Sabbath created heavy metal, whether in sound or in concept, and I do agree that their role has been romanticized and inflated by the talking heads on VH1, etc., and by themselves of late.
Thank you. Respect.
Methinks this board has some 'talking heads' as well. What say you, mr. DBB?
Methinks this board has some 'talking heads' as well. What say you, mr. DBB?
BenMech
student of the d'eh
MUCH better reply there Chris. I still think Emilio's the smarter member of Pharoah
But it's always nice to have writers from MM around. At least the Jeff Wagner era
But it's always nice to have writers from MM around. At least the Jeff Wagner era
BenMech
student of the d'eh
DBB
Member
- Dec 20, 2005
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Well, I'd say I’m beyond scorched as far as typing words into a computer go right now and this is a never-ending argument which is a meaty chunk of message board fodder no matter where you go and I'm leaving to be assaulted by the in-laws and extended family for a few days tomorrow, so I’m not in the position or mood to engage in a long and drawn out debate, but will say this now.Some Bastard said:
Much of that post had to with debunking the ANUSite (ANUSian?) outlook, so I’m just going to focus on the Black Sabbath aspect, since I never said anything about Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, etc. Machine Head and Burn were among some of the first albums I owned, and Uriah Heep is a band I don’t enjoy listening to, but that is neither here nor there in relation to the comments above.
I respect Mr. Black and his opinion, but must respectfully disagree with him while having much more in common with his argument about the importance of Diamond Head than with any argument you have presented here, Mr. Bastard (again, in case you need a reminder, not just talking about in this thread).
It would make it much easier if the NWOBHM (certainly for me) was a possible surgical cut off point, but it is not--because the word heavy metal was in wide circulation before that point and applied to Sabbath in the early ‘70s as well as the ‘80s, ’90s and today.
As I said before, first in my mind does not mean that Sabbath has to musically influence everyone and permeate each and every fragment of metal out there, but a congruence of factors which add up to make them heavy metal and which numerous others recognize and have acknowledged. There are a whole host of valid reasons why they have emerged as the forefathers and I agree with the dominant and popular opinion in this instance, so I am part of the herd in this case, ah well….can’t be contrary all the time.
However, maybe in the first article it was a bit of a knee-jerk assumption and something I took for granted, but the decibel swipe at me forced me to take yet another long look at Sabbath and I became convinced of the fact the closer I looked. I have fully stated my reasons why numerous times and presented the arguments in the articles and threads scattered across the board, so at this point, someone is either going to agree or disagree and that is something I can live with because, in essence, the body of work I’ve produced about heavy metal is a somewhat of a fool’s errand at its foundation. But that didn’t stop me in the past--and it will not stop me in the future.
The larger and wider ongoing debate that this discussion was originally a part of and that people have steadily trickled in and contributed to here and there or been swept up in as it rolls along (and, strangely enough, become much more narrow) is what matters to me, and if it was conclusively and beyond a shadow of a doubt proven that Diamond Head instead of Black Sabbath (which would still fall into the realm of being a fool’s errand) was the big bang of heavy metal, much that I have had to say is still not undermined and turned into something worthless, I think.
Or to put it another way, all this thread is smoke and fire (with substance mind you) primarily about heavy metal as strictly only music with very little discussion of larger cultural and ideological (which is not a “bad” word, despite its conventional connotations in the larger culture) components. My primary focus is on the latter two with a firm and unwavering eye on the first, so my take is going to be a bit different than others.
However, to get back to the subject of “talking heads” this…
Professor Black said:
…as I said before, is a misconception. That there has been an overwhelming focus on Sabbath as the progenitors of heavy metal in recent years is beyond a doubt, but the idea has been on the table for a much, much longer period of time and the boost it received to catapult it into its current prominence is located in the Nativity in Black tribute album released back in 1994 (well before VH1 and others came back around to the dance). Of course, that did not appear out of thin air, and there were numerous antecedents before that where people declared Sabbath to be the first (or most important/most influential in developmental terms and other variations on this theme) heavy metal band.
A lot of things along these lines that this thread has been following are going to be dealt with when I take a long look at the Disco Demolition Night in Chicago which occurred in July 1979 in the context of a much larger discussion and will be the epicenter of the next article instead of Sabbath (thank god! Though they were there in spirit, mind you.). That this has never been mentioned in a history of metal is part and parcel of what a strictly musical discussion obscures and I plan to reveal by looking at things through a different prism. If people find it interesting, infuriating, inspiring or utter bullshit--so be it, but it is too late for me to go to music school or learn to play instruments--I’m a metal cultural/social historian (therefore almost by default a "talking head") of sorts and claim to be nothing more and nothing less.
wildfyr
unus spiritus est
DBB
Member
- Dec 20, 2005
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Oh! Don't worry. I'll be serving out a sentence this weekend.
That was just my imitation of a world-conquering, big-brained alien that tried to destroy earth in a comic book of my youth.
I think the exact phrase he used was "fleshly vessels" or something along those lines.
That was just my imitation of a world-conquering, big-brained alien that tried to destroy earth in a comic book of my youth.
I think the exact phrase he used was "fleshly vessels" or something along those lines.
I referred to our nazi-friends claim that metal is distinctively European actually...that posting is apparently gone or elsewhere...?
Yes, but back in the 70's it was also used for bands and artists such as Blue Oyster Cult, Montrose, Ted Nugent and The Dictators. One of the first albums I owned was a compilation called Metalmania (1980). It featured songs by Iron Maiden and Riot but also Sammy Hagar, Deep Purple, Scorpions, Atomic Rooster and Whitesnake. A lot of the music that was called Heavy Metal back then has nothing to do with was is called Heavy Metal now.
The NWOBHM is not a 'surgical cut off point' and neither is Black Sabbath. In fact, there is no 'surgical cut off point'.
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