SAC - The live sound revolution. FIRST FIELD REPORT!

Glenn Fricker

Very Metal &Very Bad News
Mar 6, 2005
4,146
15
38
22 Acacia Avenue
Hey gang,

Ok, this one's been coming for a while: I finally got out of the studio and into the field with my SAC rig... and for a first outing, it went exceptionally well.

Just what the fuck is SAC? I'm sure there are a few of you asking precisely that. SAC is short for "Software Audio Console" it's the companion program to SAW "Software Audio Workshop" both are written by Bob Lentini from RML labs. Yep, you read that right, they're written by ONE guy.

So what's the big fucking deal? SAC/SAW are unique in that they're the only modern audio production programs written in hand-coded assembly language. In layman's terms, that means for pure speed/power, they blow the fucking doors off of everything else out there. (I'm sure I'll catch grief for that statement, but after working with SAW for the last six years, I'll stand by it.) Go download the demo if you don't believe me. The only caveat: It ain't cheap.

So, with that out of the way, here's the deal with SAC. It's the live version of SAW. Here's what you get:

72 input mixer
Gate/Compressor/EQ on every input channel.
6 aux sends
24 outputs.

Not bad, but this is where it gets interesting:

You also get

24 SUBmixers for monitor sends & whatever else you can think of. Each has:
72 input mixer
Gate/Compressor/EQ on every input channel.
6 aux sends
24 outputs.

Oh yeah, you can also run your VSTs live as well, and SAW can run alongside SAC to record everything.

So here's the story: I ran SAC live for the first time on May the 21st, working with four bands at "The Coach and Horses" in Windsor Ontario.
I think a more apt name for the bar could have been "The Dank Pit" but you get the idea. The place was dark & dingy, packed to the gills and hotter than hell.


Technical:


RIG: I'm running an Athlon dual-core PC on XP, 2 gigs of ram, RMEHDSP 9652, and a Geforce 9600GTX for those parts when it gets boring. All tucked into a "Lan PC" body. Very light & portable, but really brings the muscle.
Here's a pic of one very similar to mine:
pcmusician6_l.jpg


Converters: Presonus Digimax 96 and Berhinger ADA8000

Anyway, I stopped by the local rental shop that morning and picked up a snake, drum mic set, and extra cables.

Load-in was supposed to be at 8:30, but of course the bar staff didin't show up till 9:15, and we were due to for showtime at 10:00. (I'm guessing that's typical.)

We got in, disconnected the house board, and set up. The house had decent Yorkville PA & power amp, which I hooked into.
Now, the venue in question has a reputation for having horrible sound. I mean, just absolutely fn' terrible.

I ran 2 guitar mics, bass mic & direct box, 2 vocals, 2 drum overheads, 3 toms, 1 snare, & a kick trigger.

I had direct boxes for the guitars, but there was just not enough time to set everything up. The original plan was to reamp the guitars in the studio. But, when you've got a club full of people & groups chomping at the bit to get going, sometimes you have to make sacrifices.

I set Sac to 32 samples latency, 1 buffer. (I think that translates to 0.7 ms latency) It ran like a champ. (that's NOT a misprint. 32 samples, LIVE) It didn't even hiccup once.

Being a small club, I certainly didn't need to crank up the overheads, or even the guitar mics, for that matter, but I did have all the tracks recording into SAW. (more on that later)

Effects wise, I kept things pretty basic. Only some eq's on vocals & guitar, just to clear up some mud & fizz. Drumagog on the kick, with a vst post-eq. Gates were on pretty much everything, which was real nice at controlling feedback.

First set, they asked me to turn up the vocals. It was fun to watch the eyes light up at the vocals got louder & louder to the point where they cut like a knife, even at the back of the bar. Actually, as things got settled, I was able to walk though the club and marvel at just how good things sounded. The 'house sound guy' tried to look unimpressed, but it was gratifying to have people constantly come up to me & comment on how 'amazing' things sounded. That was the adjective that was constantly being used. "amazing."

Another interesting comment: I had one band member come up & comment that it was "The first gig he ever played where he didn't have to ask someone to turn up the monitors."

Now if I could only get metal singers to stop 'cupping' the sm58, I'd be real happy. The dumbasses don't realize it makes the mic feed back.

Some other notes: I had to swap out mics for FOUR drum sets! Jeez! Like the job isn't hard enough. Thankfully, the rental drum mics were Beyerdynamic Opus 87s. Nice and easy to swap due to the ingenious clip system. Just remember they're condensors, so when you fire them up & you're not hearing anything, turn on the phantom power! (ok, that's advice to myself!)
Overheads were a pain. I ran some StudioProjects C4 in ORTF, but getting the stand in the proper place, and then having the mics jostled & bumped constantly by the constant equipment changes made getting a proper stereo image nearly impossible. That & I realized after the gig that one mic had the 20db pad engaged! FUCK THIS SHIT, I'm buying an NT4!


The only real problem I had was with recording to SAW: Again it was a first test run. Saw would drop the recording every now and then. After asking Bob about it, it turned out I forgot to check off one thing in the setup menu for "realtime priority" , not to mention I was recording to the OS drive ( I thought that might give me some grief). Next time, I'm dropping in an extra hard drive.
Mind you, SAC didn't stop once during all four bands, and the show kept right on rolling.


Here's a sampler clip of the group "Hunter City Madness" from Ottawa.
Please bear in mind, this is my first live recording EVER!
Hunter City Madness - LIVE

Once I get the system completely tweaked, I plan to offer my mix/recording service to groups in Canada/Europe. If you want a live recording, I'll come to you.

I hope to get some pics/video up in a few days, I'm still waiting for the bands to send me some stuff.

As always, comments/questions are welcome
--Glenn


BTW, here's a link to the program:
http://www.softwareaudioconsole.com/
 
Very interesting Glenn, this setup is remarkably similar to the one I'm sporting in my house (the PC case size, shape and specs, Hammerfall, the ADA) and I'd wondered before about the feasibility of doing something like this if I added an extra preamp to my rig. Seems like it worked out fairly well for you!
 
Yeah, besides a few minor glitches, the system ran great. Once I've got the recording end of it stabilized (I really need to schedule one more test) it'll be ready for full time use.

Regardless, SAC was bulletproof. You should have seen the look on the faces of the band members when I started gating out the snare & Eq'ing the kick. Priceless.
 
Looks interesting. I think it sounds great aswell, great job!


EDIT: Whoa, it's costy compared, especially next to what I paid for Reaper. I'm going to have to hold out on this one.
 
I lol'd at the words "decent" and "yorkville" in the same sentence

I have difficulty believing you couldn't achieve the same results with an analog desk, which is what you are making it sound like

for an average show at my venue I have 10-12 bands. 4 drumsets is cake brother :)
 
I have difficulty believing you couldn't achieve the same results with an analog desk, which is what you are making it sound like

for an average show at my venue I have 10-12 bands. 4 drumsets is cake brother :)

I've yet to see an analog desk with live sample replacement, gates on every channel, paragraphic EQ on every channel, compressor on every channel, and 24 submixers with 72 inputs each, plus a full suite of VST effects as well.

Hell, it's been rare that I've been to a live gig where the sound guy even had a single compressor.

Yes, you could do a lot with an analog desk, but the cost of said desk would be astronomical.... and it still wouldn't come close to what SAC can do.

Oh yeah, you can remote SAC via TCP/IP. I know guys who set up their main rig & walk through the club controlling the show via a wireless netbook. You can mix ANYWHERE in the venue that way. Try that with an analog desk!

One cool thing coming up: The new 3m multitouch screen will be supported by SAC. It'll read all 10 fingers, too. I'm really looking forward to that one!


As for the 4 drumsets... well, it was my first gig. I'm just glad I flagged the mics so I wasn't guessing what mic went to what drum during equipment changes! I suppose I'll get used to it.


-0z-
 
wow! very interesting thread glen! sounds very nice for your first live recording! I am especially impressed with how good of a drum sound you were able to get!


Yeah, tell me about it. I was stunned when I got the tracks back. Not bad, considering I set those mics up in about 2 minutes!

They did have one hell of a drummer, though!
 
.............did they have to call it "sac?" :lol:

Sounds great, but I'm afraid it'll be a long time before using software for live sound will be widely accepted.
 
I've yet to see an analog desk with live sample replacement, gates on every channel, paragraphic EQ on every channel, compressor on every channel, and 24 submixers with 72 inputs each, plus a full suite of VST effects as well.

Hell, it's been rare that I've been to a live gig where the sound guy even had a single compressor.

Yes, you could do a lot with an analog desk, but the cost of said desk would be astronomical.... and it still wouldn't come close to what SAC can do.

Oh yeah, you can remote SAC via TCP/IP. I know guys who set up their main rig & walk through the club controlling the show via a wireless netbook. You can mix ANYWHERE in the venue that way. Try that with an analog desk!

One cool thing coming up: The new 3m multitouch screen will be supported by SAC. It'll read all 10 fingers, too. I'm really looking forward to that one!


As for the 4 drumsets... well, it was my first gig. I'm just glad I flagged the mics so I wasn't guessing what mic went to what drum during equipment changes! I suppose I'll get used to it.


-0z-

You must go to some shows with shitty engineers man. I carry, at the least, 8 comps and 8 gates with me all the time, and that's more than I will ever need for one band.

Did you have any problems with the kicks mistriggering? I would be afraid with the different dynamics that drummers have that would become problematic if you hadn't already had experience with the drummer previously.

If I really had the desire to, I could bring in my little rack with MOTU/Digimax, run the inputs I want replaced, then send them back out to the house analog desk. I recently did this when I mixed a band at a festival where we wanted to use Autotune on the singer's voice, works fine if you're only running a couple of channels, and I have run a complete band setup (16 inputs) on my Mac Pro with EQ/gates on every channel and SSL comp/Ozone on the master bus at 32 samples with no audible latency/clicks/pops. We did this for a TV station performance.

The TCP/IP control thing is cool, I'll admit that, but not $2500 cool. Didn't you have to bring in a rack of preamps too? The $2500 is just for the software?

and I can't ever think of a time when you would need 24 submixes for monitors. I use 5 the majority of the time, and at the most 12. I guess maybe if you were doing theatre and all the performers had in ears, but for band use I honestly don't think this is worth it. Overkill IMO but in the right application I can see where this software would be cool.
 
The DAW is $2500. The live thing is $500.

ah ok, but still... you would have to buy 72 preamps (or whatever X amount of inputs you want) to go with, right?

but no mac support? FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

I mean I guess the point I was really trying to make was that you make it seem as if this "amazing" sound that you produced came specifically from using this software... and yeah of course if you replace a shitty sounding kick drum it's going to sound great.. HOWEVER any decent engineer should be able to go in and mix on a decent analog desk and make it sound great, adding gear if necessary if the house gear is insufficient

if the band has bullshit gear that's their problem and out of your control

Maybe that wasn't the point you were trying to make, idk

the house sound guy probably just sucks, and you are a better engineer than he is :) I guess all I'm really trying to say here is great equipment is not a replacement for a great engineer. A great engineer will know the limitations of the equipment and mix around that.
 
You must go to some shows with shitty engineers man. I carry, at the least, 8 comps and 8 gates with me all the time, and that's more than I will ever need for one band.

Did you have any problems with the kicks mistriggering? I would be afraid with the different dynamics that drummers have that would become problematic if you hadn't already had experience with the drummer previously.


Yes, tell me about it! The live engineers in this area are fucking terrible. I mean, we're talking "Helen Keller" league. They give you the "deer in the headlights" look if you ask for a vocal echo.

No problem with mis-triggering... Just used a ddrum pro trigger into an ADA8000 then drumagog. No problems at all. I was a little concerned about it going in, but it ran flawlessly. I could probably replace the entire kit if I wanted to without much grief, as I have a full set of triggers.

I am curious as to what software/hardware combo you ran for 16 inputs on a mac at 32 samples.


Anyway, to address some more of your questions:

No mac support: I know a few guys who have SAW running on thier macs as they're using Intel based chips, not sure about SAC. I could ask though.


Cost: It's only $500 for SAC. SAW has several prices based on capability, and a pretty cool upgrade path. You can also find licenses for sale on the SAW forum at reduced rates. (Yes, they're transferrable.) That's where I got mine: http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6

Submixers: Yeah, 24 is a bit of overkill, but if you're designing an analog console replacer, why not go big? Hell, the most I'll probably ever need is four, but it's nice to know that if I need to do sound for the Grammys and The Superbowl at the same time, I can do it. :)

And about the 'amazing' thing: Well, the venue has a reputation for putrid sound. Of course the engineer makes all the difference, and yes, I could have done fine on an analog board & a ton of outboard.

But, I went from 'zero' to 'full setup' in 45 minutes, with a shuttle PC and a 3 space rack. (I'll try to get some pics up of my rig) I ran the whole thing at 32 samples latency for four hours without stopping the engine once.

Anyway, I'm waiting on some video from the gig, hopefully I can get that up soon.

-0z-
 
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Sounds great, but I'm afraid it'll be a long time before using software for live sound will be widely accepted.

You'd be surprised... A lot of the bands were pretty blown away by what it could do. A lot of people kept coming up and asking, "What the hell is that?" during setup & the show.
 
I've ran live sound from my PC with 2 Firepods a couple of times with great success using reaper. Latency wasn't an issue in the slightest. Got to use whatever Vst's I wanted, it was great- all my favourite comps, gating and eq on every channel. Easy enough to mix on too- my job is doing live sound in a venue on a desk but I felt quite comfy doing it with a mouse and keybord using shortcuts. If you're smart with the plug ins you use there's no issues- especially stuff like verbs and delays where some might have a set latency( eg SIR) or be especially CPU hungry.

I ran it using the Firepod's main L+R outs as my main FOH and used the line outs for my monitor mixes. I set channels up as a busses not sent to the main outs for my monitors so I could EQ/limit each monitor channel too. I didn't run all 16 channels though, I think I ran 11-12 inputs and 3 monitor sends with no issues. With this set-up I could technically run 16 line outs for 16 separate monitor sends but i'd imagine I'd be getting pops and clicks at that point. I didn't use OH's at any of the gigs and I didn't record any of them so I don't know how it would perform under the added stress.

Works great in a place with a small set-up, really let me get the absolute most out of the systems where they are just about good enough for the venue. One of the gigs in particular went very well in a small pub venue I'd everyone raging about how good the sound was. Ended up getting a recording gig out of every band that played that night
 
I am curious as to what software/hardware combo you ran for 16 inputs on a mac at 32 samples.

It is a quad core Mac Pro 2.66 ghz with 7GB of RAM, and my DAW is Logic 9. My interface is a MOTU 828mkii, I only use it for I/O. I have a Digimax FS lightpiped into it, and an Apogee Duet and 2 Golden Age Pre73's that I use through the line inputs. We were also running 2 monitor sends (1 for IEMs and 1 for floor wedges).

Sorry I'm questioning you so much but this whole thing has me pretty curious :) $500 is pretty reasonable for what it seems capable of, and if it has the same performance on a Mac running boot camp or parallels I would be intrigued...
 
I ran it using the Firepod's main L+R outs as my main FOH and used the line outs for my monitor mixes. I set channels up as a busses not sent to the main outs for my monitors so I could EQ/limit each monitor channel too. I didn't run all 16 channels though, I think I ran 11-12 inputs and 3 monitor sends with no issues. With this set-up I could technically run 16 line outs for 16 separate monitor sends but i'd imagine I'd be getting pops and clicks at that point. I didn't use OH's at any of the gigs and I didn't record any of them so I don't know how it would perform under the added stress.

Sounds good, man! SAC is totally dedicated for live work, so it can handle huge amounts of I/O without any issues. The downside is, it doesn't even have a recorder, but it does have a 'direct line' into SAW which can record everything at a lower priority.