Sack the soundman!!

[Badlad]

Saxon - Wulfrun 4th October, great night, dismal sound - AGAIN.
The last few times I have been to see Saxon the sound has been appalling, and I say, for crying out loud, give the F.O.H. engineer a kick up the backside, preferably with his P45.
Several points to make here - Firstly, the drumkit sounded great, no problems there, but where were the guitars? And Biff's vocals?
Though the rhythm section is obviously the bedrock of the mix, it is the mistake of an amateur to let it dominate the mix. The guitars never bit through, riffs were generally muddy, and I found myself "hearing" the solos from memory of how they should be, rather than how they were being played. (And he should know by now who plays which lead break, when.)
Now, venue acoustics could have played a part, but not at all of the 5 separate venues I have seen the band lately (meaning in the past 4 or 5 years). Someone is not doing their job properly.
ALso, Biff, forget the radio mic, get your SM58 back out! That wireless was not only making life fruity for the monitor engineer, but also was unintelligible to us punters. Though, of course the FOH engineer should have been able to sort this out over the course of the gig. Compressor? Change the mic? Go home and let someone else mix?
Radio mic aside, the L'Acoustics PA is top notch, high-end gear, some of the very best available, and he was using a Midas XL200 desk, so excuses about poor kit won't wash.
Oh, yes, I know how every punter is an "expert" on how things should sound, because, for my sins, I'm the boss of a PA company and engineer FOH. Though I will obviously be nit-picky of someone else's work, I do appreciate the difficulties of being the FOH engineer, it can be hard work. Especially when some dick-head who owns a Peavey PA and does pub gigs is spouting off how crap the sound was and how he could have done better.
SO, I have given Saxon's engineer the benefit of the doubt. But, with the same criticisms at different venues, I think I have a point.
Anyone else agree? Listen to your Saxon LP's, tell me, do they have flat guitars, overpowered with kick and snare (even though I concede it was a fine drum sound) ? Come on, be honest, then the powers-that-be can hopefully remedy the situation.
And, no, I am not pitching for the job, it would be a fatal error to mingle business with pleasure, and they ARE my favourite band, bar none. It pains me to bring the subject up, but it is killing a fine live act. Sort it out chaps!!!!

 

[Fingers]

The sound started muddy at the start of Lionheart at the Astoria, but I would truly say it was corrected almost immediately and the sound for the rest of the gig was first class.

 

[DogVomit]

Yeah the sound was great at the Astoria gig...

 

[nightwar]

BadLad -
you obviously know what your on about, and I have no problem with the critisism when you justify it in the manner you have. It's good to hear from someone like yourself. I was in a band years ago and we could have done with a tech person such as yourself! I used to just plug in and go!
About the Wulfrun gig - I was near the front, Nibbs side and, I have gotta admit, I had no problems regarding the sound. I was very impressed with the drum sound, also, but thought the guitar sound was not too bad. If anything, the bass was a little muddy. It was there, but you could not hear the specifics of it. I also thought that Biff's sound was OK.
And don't knock yourself - if you reckon you can provide a better service for the lads, let 'em know on this forum!
And, while were at it, how about giving me some equipment!! After Monday's gig, I wanna get rocking again!!

 

[Badlad]

LOL, nightwar, I know what you mean, I always come home from Saxon gigs and break out my Flying V for a bit of window-bending!

Hope you had a good night at the Wulfrun then, for me the content was certainly there. It would be a very sad day when I leave a Saxon gig and say it was crap. Perhaps you were far enough forward to be getting a nice lug-'ole full of guitar backline because I too was on Nibb's side of the stage and you know what I thought of the mix! I actually started off at the back of the hall, till the end of Power and the Glory, but it was far worse back there believe me, all kick and snare. I slithered through the bar and through the door by the bogs to get a decent view and hopefully a better sound, and it was only slightly better down there, but I stand by my judgement.

From my vantage point, it was a good job the vocals were so loud on-stage through the foldback, you could hear the difference immediately 30' back into the crowd when Biff got the monitor engineer to lift it. Alas, the monitors were a bit frisky and the levels were up and down like a yo-yo, punctuated by the odd patch of screaming feedback. (Respect to the monitor engineer for his work, it's an unenviable, thankless job, and easy for us to criticise, but if he was no good at his job, he would be gone!)
Nibb's bass sounded OK-ish, as you say it was there, but needed cleaning up a bit. Resonant frequencies of the room from the bass did make me wince more than once, sounding as it did, like out-of-control howl.

I'm glad that the sound was good at the Astoria, I went down there the last time they played there, and the sound was excellent. It probably ranks as one of the best Saxon gigs I have been to, and I have been to loooooooooooads over the past 20 years! (Although, I had been drinking all afternoon, so my judgement may not be as coldly critical as the other times when I have driven to the gigs!!!)
Conversely, the Wulfrun was possibly the worst sound-wise I have been to.

Obviously, everyone has bad days at work, sound engineers included, but the reason I have made my comments is because it has happened on more than one occasion, and I know it is the same engineer (I recall him being German because Biff was taking the piss out of him at Milton Keynes shortly after England beat them 5-1.). At Rock City a year or two ago (think it may have been a second batch of dates they did on that tour), I stood behind the FOH desk and couldn't believe the guy was missing solos, by the time he realised there was a lead break and found the fader, they were almost over. Dual breaks, he seemed to be out of phase, lifting the guitar that had just finished the solo, always slightly behind the action. That is understandable in someone working with a strange band, but him being the resident engineer, he should know those parts inside out. I dare say everyone here could do it, and could probably hum along with the solos, knowing exactly where and when they start/finish.

I know how easy it is to say gigs sounded fine, when you don't want to rock the boat and everyone else is saying it is OK. It is only when someone is brave enough to criticise (fairly) that everyone pipes up that, yes, things haven't been up to scratch. The band have no idea, because they are up onstage. So long as their monitor mix is good, which to those of you out there who are not musos, is completely different to what we hear out front, they will be happy. As I have said, a monitor engineer has to be on the ball every gig, or he will find himself jobless within 2 or 3 bad shows. If he is bad, the band aren't able perform properly. Strange though it may seem, the chap out front can get away with screwing up for a lot longer than the chap sitting at side of the stage.
The FOH engineer himself, nor his buddies, are going to jeopardise their positions by being overly-honest, so it is down to us, the fans, to make these points, in a fair, and measured way. My job being what it is, I spend too much time watching and listening to gigs from a professional point of view, and it does kinda kill the magic of going to a gig and having a great night out jumping around singing along. Up till now with Saxon, this has not been an issue - I go to see them to relax, singalong and hear those killer tunes. Only now, as I get older, and jumping around is becoming a tad wearing, I stand back and can't hear the necessary.

I KNOW the band aren't sloppy, I have experienced them with perfect sound (to my ears anyway), though I have no idea who the engineers have been. Alas, it is only when the sound is bad that anyone takes a blind bit of notice of who the engineer is, and my attention has been grabbed, unfortunately.

I believe it is time words were had with the relevant parties to ensure they try a little harder.

 

[exxie]

I am sorry but i totally disagree!!! Where i was the Sound was great in the middle near the front waving a flashing light trying to blind everyone.Saxon was the best i have heard them in what 20+ years well almost the best.I think you must have had to much drink or something else?The only thing i was dissapointed in was they didnt play Solid ball of rock,Eagle has landed,English Man'o'War, But i like the idea of 2 sets Old and new songs? Even if Biff said £150 a ticket Back in Britain Feb Anyway great show,Saxon still rocking.Thankyou guys for all the great music over the years.Keep the faith Biff and gang :hotjump: :hotjump:

 

[Paxoman]

I second what Fingers said. When 'Lionheart' started at the Astoria, I thought Biffs vocals sounded way too high. But this was corrected straight away.

I was in the middle, near the front at Wolverhampton, and the sound was fine.

 

[macc189]

I suppose it takes a trained ear Pax, such is the like that the likes of me or you wouldnt spot but someone with experience in that field would home in like a moth to a flame. I suppose theres nothing wrong with vying for perfection, I mean after all, a PERFECT Saxon show? theres something I'd remortgage the house to see!!!

 

[Switchnow]

wow, thats too bad about the sound

 

[Badlad]

Naah, sorry exxie, stone cold sober, I'm afraid, and gave up all that other nonsense years ago!
As for the £150 ticket shows, I'm sure they would get some takers, though perhaps a touch too dear for my wallet!!! I don't know whether it is a good thing or a bad thing when we can all think of sooooooo many songs we would have liked to have heard, and yet still enjoyed the show we got. Whilst there were the odd omissions from my hot-list, it's good to see that the band can drag out numbers we haven't heard for years. Comes from having a solid back-catalogue, I think you will agree.

Now, just to keep my discussion going, what is the common denominator between exxie and Paxoman's comments? The fact they were both "near the front". Which IMHO leads me to believe they were getting a good blast of the backline, and, as I pointed out, a good waft of the vocal foldback (luckily for us all!!). Pretty much a different image to what the rest of the crowd were getting.

Anyone stood further than, say, 30' back got any comments? ( LOL, watch the deluge of comments saying I am wrong now!!)
Better still, someone going to see the band in the near future please bear my thoughts in mind and let us have your objective opinion. It can be difficult to think back to recall the sound quality when you didn't pick up on it at the time. Forewarned is forearmed, so somebody please ask yourself the question, are the guitars cutting through (especially the solos)? Is the kick and snare overpowering all else (a fine thump it is, nontheless)? Is Biff coming through nice and clearly? (Though I have said I have thought the sound has been poor on previous occasions, the vocals have always been fine. I think it may well have been that actual unit, Biff did say "This mic doesn't like me...")

When all is said and done, we all go to have a good night out, and I don't want to come over all anal about the sound quality. I am not a trainspotter, honest! I dare say it has something to do with the fact I don't tend to fight my way to the front any more and am spending more shows listening from a sedate distance, rather than leaping about, full of Tennents. I had to fight my way forward the other night, despite being totally knackered, because it sounded so grim further back. I paid for it later on though when my back and legs started playing up. Eeeh, when I were a lad, I could have moshed all night long etc etc.................

I know I'll be there in February, wherever the lads end up playing (please please don't just play one London show, they are a serious ball-ache to get to. Play London, Midlands and North shows at least, along with NI, Wales, Scots, of course. OO-er, this sound dangerously like veering off-topic, deserves a thread of it's own...........). I'll be the one in the day-glo anorak standing behind the FOH position, arms folded, scowling. PMSL, hmm, yeah right!!!!
I know I will enjoy the show, whatever!

 

[Badlad]

Aha, Macc189, interesting point.
However, it is not necessarily the trained ear that gets the best idea of the sound. Engineers often can't see the wood for the trees and get over-concerned with tiny details that "Mr Average" doesn't notice, yet miss the big picture.
As Professionals, our advantage is that we can analyse the component parts of a "bad" mix, and understand WHY it sounds bad, and HOW to remedy that.

I find it always helps to have someone nearby who has no interest or training in sound engineering, who can tell you "yes or no", whether the sound is OK or not, and whether your judgement is somewhere close. They won't tell you that the rack tom eq needs a tweak, but will be able to say straight away "I cant hear the guitars. The drums are too loud". It stops you running away with tweaking and confirms you have the basics as they should be. As I say, it can be very easy to neglect the basics in favour of the fine details.

As for the perfect Saxon show. I dunno whether anything can be 100% with a show.
(I have seen some pretty close Saxon shows though, ones I cannot fault from the content or the sound mix, which is why I find it is irksome that the last few shows I have seen have been noticably not-right. And it is basic mix which is out, not in-depth technical stuff.)
Usually it is the journey there and back, or the 7' giant with Halitosis standing in front of me which stops the shows being perfect!!!

 

[macc189]

if i were you mate id be on the phone to their management enquiring about any vacancies! sounds to me youre more than qualified for the sound stool!

 

[Blueboy111]

Just to say I thought the sound was excellent...yeah, the beginning started a little off, but they soon had it sorted for what I was hearing.

Stormin' night!

 

[strangehighways]

Well the sound at the Astoria was not perfect, as the guitars were not loud enough. If there is anything that annoys me, it is the lack of a loud guitar sound. guitars MUST be loud as they provide the riffs and the thrust of the band. The sound did improve as the night went on and by Dogs of War it was fantastic, the riffage on that song was making me headbang so much!! But some early stuff like Power and the Glory sounded pretty bad coz the guitars were not loud enough. I was 10 ft in front of the sound desk, so I don't think the sound engineer has any excuses. Normally I am very impressed with Saxons sound. The fat german bearded dude who does it is normally excellent, but this year he wasnt as good. I remember the Metalhead tour at the Mean Fiddler, the sound was perfect, it was so loud and the guitars were crushing. KEEP THE GUITARS LOUD!!!

 

[Karsten]

Ulli (who some jerk called "fat german bearded dude ") usually does a great job mixing Saxon sets, he does it for some 10+ years now.

I also had a problem with the sound at the show I went to (Filderstadt) but I doubt it being due to Uli unable to mix it correctly.I thought the PA this time around was way inferior to other PA systems.I think each and every band rents suchs systems when going on the road, doubt that the system belongs to Saxon.
The sound at the Filderstadt show was also muddy at first but immediately got better.
Since I got to know Ulli pretty well over the years I know that he usually does a great job, the only thing I would critize is that I'd prefer it to be a little louder for most of the shows.But since I'm usually front of the board at shows, it surely is way louder in front of the stage.

I know that also Ulli disliked the acoustics of the venue and also was not satisfied with the PA this time.The bass man from Metalium came to Ulli after the show and they talked about the problems with sound here.A few other fans were not happy with the sound as well and mentioned that to us when the shows was over.

I wouldn't doubt Ullis skills here, he's really a pro..Last year when they played with Doro and CIIC you could easily listen that when Doro came up how much the sound got worse with the Doro soundman in comparison to Ulli mixing CIIC and Saxon.

 

[exxie]

Who cares!!! move to the front next time and enjoy great music and have fun. Thats what makes a great live band doesnt always go to plan. i think you could be a brittney spears fan There is still hope for you yet.

 

[macc189]

I can see where Badlads coming from if you look at it this way, imagine you worked in the same field, youre going to be critical, just comes with the territory and to even MENTION the b p words shows a distinct lack of musical maturity so dont knock the lad! hes obvioulsy a pro in his field and therefore has the right to be picky! (as would I if I knew anything at all about boards, desks and reverby thingys.

 

[saxon747rock]

I aint no sound expert but i can tell a crap sound from a good one, we went to london astoria and was stood at the front right in front of nibbs prob not the best place to judge a perfect sound but where we where stud and i have stud in the same place before i have to admit i have heard saxons sound live a lot better before, yes it was loud enough but the bass guitar for me was to loud drowning the guitars out a bit to much the drum sound was good where we was stud and biffs vocals where great but not loud enough getting drowned out a bit again by too much volume on the bass.

I have heard saxon live plenty of times before sound wise sounding a lot better so yeah give the sound guy a big kick up the arse and get him into gear it could have been a lot better but it dident stop saxon putting on a great show.

 

[nightwar]

No worries, Badlad, like Mr Macc stated - when you're in the trade you do perceive your chosen subject in a cynical way. And, as you've said, the Forum is a great place for the band to pick up feedback- for Biff and Co, this kind of feedback is probably crucial and they would appreciate it, even of some of it is a little negative.
As some of you may know, I'm a writer and adore reading decent fiction or learning from a decent non-fiction book. But, as I've got older and wiser, my enjoyment of reading has wained, simply because whatever I read I now analyse. It is just the way things go.
There is also another matter that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. The actual venue can be very relevant to the overall sound. When I played in a band, there were some places that you knew had a crap sound. There were so many elements to the reason for this curse - bad acoustics, low/high ceiling, style of floor, band placed in corner or too open etc. All these things influence the sound.