Scales ... help please

[Cybermax]

Hey!

I've been playing the guitar for abot 2 years now. I really want to get into soloing now!

So what are the scales i need to learn first? Major scales? Minor scales? Pentatonic Scales???

Please help!

 

[xenophobe]

I would start out with your Major and Minor modes first....

Petatonic Scales are great for rock or heavy metal, not so common in death metal...

Most people focus mainly on their minor modes for this type of music.

It is best to get a teacher, so they can show you the standard positional or 3 note variant of the modes.

I would suggest you learn your 3 note per string modes, but most teachers don't teach them that way, from what I've seen at least...

If you need any specific scales or stuff... just ask...

 

[Dead Eternity]

yes, as xenophobe said, learn the 3 note variants of the scales, then you get fast as a bunny.

 

[Cybermax]

@xenophobe: the 3 note per string modes ....
so one major-scale would be:


1--2---4------------------------------------------------------
---2---4-------------------------------------------------------
1----3-4-------------------------------------------------------
1----3-4---------------------------------------------------------
1--2---4---------------------------------------------------------
1--2 --4---------------------------------------------------------


With the root on the bold 2.

(numbers are for fingers and not for frets).

And there are 5 different major scales arent there?

And what is the "longfrom-scale"? Is it just combined by different major scales?

 

[xenophobe]

F Ionian - major scale

(using fret numbers, high E to low E)

Standard 
1   3   5
    3   5
  2 3   5
  2 3   5
1   3   5
1   3   5

3-note
    3   5 6
    3   5 6
  2 3   5
  2 3   5
1   3   5
1   3   5

Actually, there are 5 modes considered to be Major scales... Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian and Mixolydian. But also include two more, depending how they are used: Aeolian (natrual minor), Locrian (half-diminished)... They form the complete "pattern" on the fretboard, going up a note.... So it would be F - Ionian, G - Dorian, A-Phrygian, Bb - Lydian, C - Mixolydian, D - Aeolian, E - Locrean, and fill the Major fretboard pattern.

Longform scale? That could mean the 3-note variant. A combined run through the modes possibly. Maybe 3 note per string blues scales...

I don't know what to tell you. I've been playing off and on for 18 years or so, but I'm just starting to learn my theory now. I'll help you where I can, but if you want to learn, you should really find a competent teacher in your area.

Hope some of this crap makes sense to you!

 

[nihilist]

Cybermax, Scales & theory are the most important part of music so learning them now will prove to be very invaluble later on. I recommend heavily learning your standard major (Ionian) mode scale in whatever pattern you like (3 note whatever) all up and down the neck on each string. Then learn all 3 forms of the minor (Aeolian) mode which are standard minor, harmonic minor (same as standard except the 7th is raised to a major one), and melodic (the 6th and 7th are raised to their major equivalents ascending, but descending is standard minor). Hope that's not too confusing, that will make sense as your theory catches up. Those are the most commonly used in metal guitarwork. Don't worry about modes too much right now, they're WAY simpler than they sound. All it means to be playing in a mode means that your root is a different scale degree... not an enitrely different scale. So, if you are playing in C dorian, you would keep playing a C major scale, but have the root as the second scale degree D. And so on up the scale. It's used alot in jazz, but rarely in metal. Opeth is the only band that I see using modal themes that aren't major or minor. Xeno, careful about saying that those other modes are major, technically the only one referred to as "major" (in classical music at least) is Aeolian. Though some others might contain a major triad, the rest of their scale degrees don't complete a major scale.
As far as pentatonics go, they're good to know but overrated as far as I think. They're good for blues, but get boring quickly. I hope this helps, and I cannot advocate theory enough, modern music needs it to recover from the slump we've been in for quite a while. Later

 

[xenophobe]

I forgot to mention that all those modes can be played in any position, and as long as you keep the Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian etc, in realative posistion, like starting Ionian in A, as long as you keep the modal progression, you will stay in key when you start moving around the fretboard during a solo.

-------------

Nihilist, all of those modes ARE within the major scale though, as are all their relative minors. I think it's just easier for a beginner to understand that...

I absolutely agree, he should learn the Ionian in every position he can, and memorize the notes that would be in any position. Once he can do that, everything else afterwards is much simpler to learn.

I don't think we should get into a discussion of #/b 5ths, 6ths or 7ths in this thread, that would surely confuse Cybermax, and it surely is testing the limits of my rather limited understanding of theory. But, I would like it if we started a more advanced thread on theory. That would be great for me, and I'm sure a lot of others too. heh. I can do all the question asking.

I'm trying not to get too technical for a player who doesn't know much thory, which is why I only posted the major scale in the standard position.

I will say, that it helped my understanding some, playing both three-note and standard posistional modes. It helped me to realize in practice, that the scale you are playing, can be played any number of ways, in any number of positions, not just the standard posisitional way they are represented (like keeping a scale within the confines of the 3-note example above). Of course, once you know your scales, learning to #/b certain notes to change to change a major mode into a melodic minor, or to string modes together to form scalar runs are both two difficult hurdles to get past.

(edit) I also forgot to mention, it is also good to learn how to play your modes on a single string... That can help you build more complex leads and help you keep rooted in more complex leads, without having to struggle to realize exactly where you are going, but this is another topic of intermediate discussions(/edit)

The hardest thing I am finding is to break off from the standard ascend/descend in one mode (3/4/5 note seqencing), and flowing through several others following the same sequence, and end it without it sounding like I am obviously doing that.

I agree Pentatonics are kinda worthless in the music I play, but are easy to learn and apply for fast results.
I'm just starting to learn 3-note per string blues scales, and I think they're interesting, and offer a good stretching and movement to my excersize routine.

 

[nihilist]

WE SO SHOULD start a theory message board, is there a way to propose new board to the webmaster? I'm definitely all about that. I want to clarify what I said earlier, as far as all my theoretically basis is concerned (I'm a year away from a classical guitar performence bachelor's degree), no one in classical theory considers the minor mode a major scale. I mean, there's no point in calling it a major scale with Aeolian root. If that were the case, why wouldn't a major mode be called a "minor scale with phrygian root?" It's just the classical terminology that I've gotten used to I guess, but I've never heard of it termed "everything major." That would also abandon the need to term a relative major/minor. Anyways, I REALLY feel that this board could greatly benefit from a theory board. I'll collaborate with you in being a moderator for it if that's what it takes. See ya

 

[xenophobe]

Yeah, I agree, a message board would be great.

I mean they're all major modes in the sense that an F Ionain on the fingerboard would be like the first example, but a G Dorian can be played in the F- Ionian posisiton like this:

F- Ionian
   2 3
1    3    5
1    3    5  -  low E

Where as in the same position, a G-Dorian in F-Ionian position:

   2 3    5
1    3    5
     3    5  - Low E

A phrygian in F Ionian

   2 
   2 3    5
1    3    5
          5   - low E
Bb Lydidan in F Ionian

   2 3
   2 3    5
1    3    5    - A string

ETC...

Like I was saying, they are all part of the Major scale, just starting from a different root note of the Ionian (major scale).

ALL of the "major scales" I refer to will fit into the Ionian without flatting or sharping any particular notes, whereas harmonic minors would require you to do so.

(edit)
And, whereas, the Aeolian is really just the relative minor of the Ionian, and since the Ionian is considered THE major scale which everything in Western music is based upon, the Aeolian is a NATURAL minor, in that it incorporates only the notes of a MAJOR scale, whereas melodic minors require a modification to a 5th, 6th, or 7h (usually one or more) to make it a minor.

WHEW! That is why I'm saying that the Aeolian is generally grouped in with the MAJOR modes.(/edit)

On a side note, explaining this is even helping my understanding of what I have been taught.