Scott Burns Production

[TravisW]

James...if you don't mind me asking what was the budget/cost to work with Scott back in the day?

On a side note, I loved and still love Scott Burns produced albums. I remember getting Sepultura's BTR on vinyl when it came out and I was in love with the guitars and overall production and I still love it. Old Obituary and Death....those are classic in terms of Death Metal and production.

In 1988, 89 and 90 I thought Scott Burns and Morrisound Studios were Gods! I was 18 years old in 1988 and to hear Scott Burns name meant Death Metal!!! I think there is a picture of him on the inside of the Terrorizer CD/Tape/LP.

In my opinion Scott Burns is a pioner in Death Metal history!

I totally agree. And, at the time, those albums sounded terrifyingly heavy. Even today, I just turn them up a bit louder than the current albums that I listen to--still heavy. In my mind, it's like Sabbath Vol 4. That album isn't the most well-produced album in history, but 36 years later it's still damned heavy. I love metal from all eras, and I have to give kudos to the guys who really seemed to capture the zeitgeist of it all.

 

[James Murphy]

James...if you don't mind me asking what was the budget/cost to work with Scott back in the day?

I was speaking more in general terms, there was no "one fee".... just lower budgets in general than would have allowed for less break-neck schedules, at least for a lot of albums I was aware of. There are obviously notable exceptions that likely had higher budgets. I wasn't privy to the details of every album he ever did, clearly.... so I'm basically drawing from the albums i was in the loop on... and informed by those, the rest is just observation. I make no claims to knowing every detail of SB's career, I hope that's clear.

 

[EerieVon]

i was speaking more in general terms, there was no "one" price.... just lower budgets in general than would have allowed for less break-neck schedules, at least for a lot of albums. there are obviously notable exceptions that had higher budgets.

Shouldn't the blame for this be shared by Tom Morris as well? By not negotiating and accepting almost every deal that came through Earache and Roadrunner both knew that if they offered such and such dollar amount then the quality (for the time) would be good and would sell to their expectations--I read some where Monte's formula was like 25-50k for 1st album, 100k for the second, etc

I agree that Scott was a pioneer in the early days of the genre, he could do what others wrap their heads around, and make the bands sound they way they wanted when in most cases they didnt know how to achieve that sound themselves--often pushing themselves beyond what they thought they could do--a great story about this scenario is when he recorded Napalm, he pushed them so hard that they almost walked out of the session

 

[James Murphy]

Shouldn't the blame for this be shared by Tom Morris as well? By not negotiating and accepting almost every deal that came through Earache and Roadrunner both knew that if they offered such and such dollar amount then the quality (for the time) would be good and would sell to their expectations--I read some where Monte's formula was like 25-50k for 1st album, 100k for the second, etc

Ok, now we're getting into territory i don't feel comfortable (or knowledgeable) commenting on specifically. In general terms... speaking of when Scott was producing... I've already said that Morrisound, as any other studio, had/has set fees for studio time. The owners of the studio employed Scott as an engineer prior to his production career taking off, but I don't think they managed that career. Again, I don't claim to have been privy to the inner workings of Morrisound, but in general a producer's fee is negotiated by the producer himself or by his manager if he has one... the studio charges what the studio charges. So, I'm not sure your comments have any relevance at all. And I certainly don't think there's any "blame" to be assigned.

Look, SB did great work, especially for the time, and was one of the "holy trinity" of producer/mixers in that era.... the other two being CR and AW. I'm quite sure that had he stayed in the business his work would have progressed just as the other two's did.

Many of his mixes still sound good today, even against modern good productions.... just turn them up if the volume seems low in comparison.

'nuff said.

 

[EerieVon]

Ok, now we're getting into territory i don't feel comfortable (or knowledgeable) commenting on specifically. In general terms... speaking of when Scott was producing... I've already said that Morrisound, as any other studio, had/has set fees for studio time. The owners of the studio employed Scott as an engineer prior to his production career taking off, but I don't think they managed that career. Again, I don't claim to have been privy to the inner workings of Morrisound, but in general a producer's fee is negotiated by the producer himself or by his manager if he has one... the studio charges what the studio charges. So, I'm not sure your comments have any relevance at all. And I certainly don't think there's any "blame" to be assigned.

Look, SB did great work, especially for the time, and was one of the "holy trinity" of producer/mixers in that era.... the other two being CR and AW. I'm quite sure that had he stayed in the business his work would have progressed just as the other two's did.

Many of his mixes still sound good today, even against modern good productions.... just turn them up if the volume seems low in comparison.

'nuff said.

I agree with SB doing fantastic work. All I meant was that Scott in some cases felt he could have done better work with more time invested but that it was never really an option since Morrisound was know for quality work in a very short time frame and on, in many cases, a shoe string budget--I meant blame for that reputation, not the quality. But also because Morrisound had that rep they, (or I should say SB) was the goto for Roadrunner and Earache in many cases

 

[James Murphy]

All I meant was that Scott in some cases felt he...

Well perhaps you have more insight than me.... i certainly don't claim to have ever known exactly what Scott felt about the situation you're speaking about, and i was mostly engaging in a more-or-less informed speculation, based on old memories of my times recording there and the knowledge of recent years regarding how i handle my own business affairs. i'm gonna excuse myself on this thread at this point as i've said pretty much all i can recall with impartiality intact.

Anyway, we certainly have a large body of work from SB to look back on, and his legacy is secure.

 

[GarethSE]

"and Colin Richardson (Carcass)"

In all honesty, as much as I know most of you guys love Scott's production, you can't really even mention his production in the same sentence as Colin's work on Heartwork.

Or maybe I'm just an opinionated bastard haha.

 

[Metaltastic]

"and Colin Richardson (Carcass)"

In all honesty, as much as I know most of you guys love Scott's production, you can't really even mention his production in the same sentence as Colin's work on Heartwork.

Or maybe I'm just an opinionated bastard haha.

100% agreed - you old farts can have your nostalgia about crappy production being a sign of the times, but all I can say is I'm glad I was like 6 when all this stuff came out!

 

[James Murphy]

100% agreed - you old farts can have your nostalgia about crappy production being a sign of the times, but all I can say is I'm glad I was like 6 when all this stuff came out!

don't worry, there'll be some little douche-nozzles saying the same shit about today's productions in due time,

 

[GarethSE]

don't worry, there'll be some little douche-nozzles saying the same shit about today's productions in due time,

Oh of course.
I was like 2 when Focus came out. It's no surprise that I think the production sounds like a wet fart.

 

[Metaltastic]

don't worry, there'll be some little douche-nozzles saying the same shit about today's productions in due time,

Hmm, I doubt it...

 

[James Murphy]

i don't... not one little bit. happens every new generation.... already seen it twice in my life. not every single current production will have this issue, many will stand the test of time. but many more that we all currently think are fine and even good will be bagged upon in the future as "unlistenable" or "not up to modern standards". to some degree it's already happening, but it will be more common and encompassing in 10 years time. it is not a matter of "if", it's simply a matter of "when".

 

[Metaltastic]

Well all I know is there are tons of old productions I have no problem with (especially from that era of the late 80s/early 90s); unless an engineer does something really drastic (like extreme scoopage, for example), I think pleasing sounds are kind of timeless. Sure, things will sound dated, but that's a far cry in my mind from unlistenable.

 

[James Murphy]

Well all I know is there are tons of old productions I have no problem with (especially from that era of the late 80s/early 90s)

yeah, i pretty much said that.... that many will stand the test of time. the albums i was referring to that won't... well, they won't... just as there are albums now that haven't. so yeah...

what i said.

 

[Metaltastic]

what i said.

Well I'm not sure how to read that, but we're in agreement, so I'll take what I can get!

 

[ProjectHamsterdam]

Well, I was 7 in 1990 and I got into death metal a few years later in 1995. True, the technical aspect of mixing as an art form has evolved quite a bit since then, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating Scott Burns' stuff.

The albums the guy worked on with Cannibal Corpse, Death, Atheist, Deicide, Obituary, Sepultura, even SFU's 'Haunted' has all made a great impression on me. Even to this day I think his production is great, plus it brings back such great memories.

The thing I appreciate most from that era is the fact that a lot of bands putting albums out in (roughly) the same year did sound completely different. You put on 'Eaten back to life' then 'Cause of Death' then 'Blessed are the Sick' then 'Deicide' and they all sound unique.

One thing I can not resist asking, and I searched like mad for it and couldn't find is, James, could you share some nerdy stuff on how the guitars on 'Cause of Death' were recorded: I mean guitars (BC Rich?), pickups, amps, cabs, mics, whatever you can recollect.

It's just that this is one of my fave albums production and music wise and that's not ass kissing, that is a fact. I am still in awe of the guitar sound on that album and it's been 18 years since it was recorded.

 

[GarethSE]

IMO the production that's really stood the test of the time is the old 60's/70's stuff.
Led Zeppelin I is still an amazing sounding record and I defy any of you to disagree with me haha.
The 80's is when it all went a bit downhill IMO.
E-Drums, Synths and Scooped Mids. 3 things I hate with a passion being the staple of a generation's production just doesn't bode well for my enjoyment I suppose.

 

[Ermz]

There is a certain charm to his work, no doubt.

I sometimes wonder whether there will be any timeless quality to look back on in today's productions. So much of our approach seems to rely on technology. When it's all said and done and technology inevitably advances far beyond what we have available now, will people only be able to see those shitty 24-bit/44kHz sterile plug-ins, those poor analogue emulations, those dated drum quantizing techniques, the over-mastering etc.

I think there will definitely be a lot of cringing when the next gen look back on our work.

 

[_Brutalism_]

Hmm, interesting point you bring up Moonlapse. But how do you figure things will change in the future? Will it be totally different? I doubt. Will it be an advancement from today's methods? Probably.

From the 70's, 80's and early 90's things were progressively done with more reliance on technology. The transition from tape to digital is the most evident. But now, from what I can see, the audio world has reached a steady plateau with new bases to build up on, using the same fundamental technology which has become ubiquitous within the audio realm, now more so than ever. Free plugins, cheap (relatively) digital gear with professional sounding results, an abudance of software both for Max and PC etc etc. Being new to this field, I cannot elaborate on this, but from my observations I think the only way is up from what we currently have today, even though I reckon it will be at a slower pace than previously seen between the last 2 decades. New formats and media to record are always sprouting out and I'm sure this will continue in the future but as far as recording techniques go, I think what is available now will pretty much be the foundation for evolution rather than something to be cringed at as being ineffective or mediocre.

Scott in my opinion managed to reach a higher plane along with other pioneers at the time. However, having recorded so many influential and scene-moulding bands, one can use his work as a reference as to what sounds good with what sounds raw, pure and gritty which pretty much gave a clear view of how to progress with that style of production.

 

[SickBoy]

Oh of course.
I was like 2 when Focus came out. It's no surprise that I think the production sounds like a wet fart.

It surprises me no matter how old you are... :confused
I think "Focus" sounds great and has a very distinctive sound. It's like me saying "1st Boston LP was released 2 years before I was born, it's no surprise I think it sounds like a wet fart"

Although i hate the mix, i will say i think Death Human is the best record he ever produced and Deaths best material. Just imagine if it sounded as good as symbolic. There would almost be no reason to go on! Heh :Smokedev:

Well, I really wouldn't want "Human" to sound any other way... I just wish bass guitar was a bit more pronounced but that's all basically.
The productions of the day had a certain charm and sonic diversity that I find lacking in many productions of today...