So is anyone here NOT into fusion?

[LordFireworm]

Well,I use fusion as a broad spectrum but I mean the virtuoso supergroups such as Tribal Tech,Vital Tech Jones, Liquid Tension Experiment etc.
There seems to be alot of interest here is such bands so with that in mind,are there actually many people who just find it boring?
Endless noodling and lack-of-quality melodies can become very boring,very quickly in my experience.
Note:This is not a flame for people who dig this shit,just a poll to see who agrees with me.
Eamonn

 

[xenophobe]

No, the fusion I like is:

Kazumi Watanabe
Mark Varney Producions stuff MVP - Truth in Shredding, Centrifigal Funk
Holdsworth
Jean Luc Ponty

I'm not totally into it, but it's awesome stuff...

As for the endless shredding, yeah it becomes boring after a while... I don't consider ANY of the above to fit into the "mindless shredding" deal, but I like to listen to it when I'm in the mood for it.

 

[The Wanderer]

Im not into fusion or most instrumental stuff. they dont feel like songs to me. i think its cool that the musicians can do it, i sure as fuck can't, but its not something i can listen to. perhaps you could recommend something good to start with?

 

[hakkikt]

To say fusion don't defines clearly a musical style, as you might
be speaking about any mix between:
rock, jazz, folk, latin, middle-eastern, any other style...

Super-virtuoso players group doesn't mean fusion group.

I think fusion expands boundaries for playing techniques
and music expression, sometimes more one than the other...
Sometimes with good musical outcomes.
There are good records, and others not so good

But in any case, it is usually hard to digest to
anyone who's not really into complex kinds of music...
so objective opinions are almost impossible...

This forum may be more akin to fusion than
a Breatney Spears forum so maybe a poll would be
biased as the groups where Steve
participates are rather in the complex music section
than in cheap-pop-stuff, fortunately

In any case, the groups you mention are just a tiny
part of the fusion "super"-groups in the last decade.
And this has been happening since the 70's
with different levels of sucess.
Maybe the most famous among them:
Return to Forever: Corea/Clarke/DiMeola/White
followed closely by
Mahavishnu Orchestra (McLaughlin/Cobham)
and
Weather Report (Zawinul/Pastorius/Shorter)

Cheers,
Hakkikt

 

[Fyhed]

return to forever were the greatest.........

man Al di meola is fucking wicked.......

And have any of you guys heard Stanley Clarke's solo stuff.......(NOT THE 80'S)........yea

And what about herbie hancock, any fans?

 

[HippieOfDoom]

Well, there's so much to be said on this. But the thing to remember is to discuss it openly. As soon as someone forces their close minded opinions then the discussion is lost and it becomes a pointless argument.

If you find fusion boring, then I can't help you. I happen to love it. Of course I'm an old guy who grew up listening to, and witnessing it in my youth. Back when it was the shit, back when it was everywhere, back when it was the theme songs for TV shows. Remember "Barney Miller" or "Mission Impossible"...

Those groups you mentioned above are definitely the shit, man they were the supergroups for sure. Unfortunately, it was realized on a larger scale only after the fact. Also back in the day there was Spyro Gyra (they're all pussed out now, but their first few albums jammed), Chuck Mangione, Herb Albert, Maynard Furguson (sp?), Jeff Beck, and the guys who started from the main groups like Al Di Meola, Jean Luc Ponty, Stanley Clarke and Herbie Hancock.

In the past few years it has picked up a lot. Tribal Tech is killer, but for a new listener I would suggest the middle albums over the newer ones, like the self titled one and the one after it, Illicit. Vital Tech Tones is cool, but if you don't like long improvised jams then maybe it's not right for you, but then you're missing bass ruleage. One of the new killers is that other Tone Center one, Gamble/Smith/Hamm - Show Me What You Can Do. Also check out Niacin, Cosmosquad, Lost Tribe and Dark Hall......oops! Did I say that??

The thing is to look for the bands that have more of a structure and formulamatic song writing style. I mean I think one of the greatest jam albums ever is Steve Coleman - Black Science (that little picture under my screen name over there)...but I wouldn't turn someone on to it who's not familiar with self indulgant improvising. I mean what you said: "Endless noodling and lack-of-quality melodies can become very boring,very quickly in my experience." Well can't the same be said about metal? "Endless bashing for speed's sake and lack of melodies all together can be very boring". It's all a matter of taste. Most of us here find what we enjoy about metal within it's own structure, something unrecognizable to someone new to the scene. And just as there are qualities that separate metal bands from each other, formulating our opinion about them for our own likes and dislikes...the same goes for fusion. So if you've only heard a few bands who bore the crap out of you. I don't think that means they're all the same and that every fusion disc sucks. But if it still does suck for you after many tries of listening to many different groups...even stoned...then I guess it ain't your thing man.

Oh..! Before you give up. Take a listen to Jonas Hellborg Group "e".

 

[xenophobe]

I've only one Jonas Hellborg....

Octave of the Holy Innocents. I really dig the accoustical jams.

I'll have to check out some of the other stuff mentioned in this thread.

 

[The Wanderer]

I wouldn't say i find it totally boring, more that i haven't been exposed to a lot of it. I"ve heard al dimeola and its cool but kinda laid back i guess. i've heard the changing weather song by dark hall and i dig that. chuck mangione i'm familiar with from when i played trumpet in high school jazz bands. i guess i didn't know it was considered jazz. i'm going to try and check out some of those artists listed. what makes fusion fusion anyway?

 

[HippieOfDoom]

That it is a "fusion" of different elements in music. It's not true or traditional jazz, it's not big-band, it's not pure rock, it's not old school blues, it's not real funk...but it has elements of all of that - and more. Most people call it Jazz/Fusion because it's always more on the side of modern jazz, just with a lot of rock and funk and blues mixed in. When you see the term fusion being used it usually entails instrumental music in a more freeform improvisational manner. It's usually more technical and complex than jazz. But like anything it's open to interpretation.
Here in the US it's an outdated term like disco, where you know it's from an age gone by. But in Holland they have specific sections for it in the shops, it's beautiful. It's making a little comeback over here though, and the label Tone Center is flying the fusion flag the highest. All quality stuff they got over there.

 

[yourdeadgroom]

I love DiMeola (although his last couple of albums have been a little week, I wish someone would break his guitar synth.....). His 70's era stuff is killer, such as the Elegant Gypsy album, the sound is so cheesy it should suck (gotta love that old keyboard sound), but the music is just so good that the whole thing is cool.
I've heard a couple of Stanley Clarke albums. "If this bass could only talk" was pretty cool, but I didn't really like the other albums I heard.

Interesting that people should comment on the improvisational aspect of fusion, one of the things I've always appreciated about DiMeola for example, is that everything sounds structured, it sounds like an actual song (albeit with alot of soloing) rather than just a jazz improv. That's one of the things I don't like about jazz, the type where they play a head, then the guitar does a solo, the bass does a solo etc etc then they play the head and stop. I've never quite 'got' that (just a case of my head needing melodies to latch onto, I think). I've always though of fusion as the opposite of that. Oh well, guess you shouldn't form a view on a style when you only have limited exposure to it Might just have to check out some of the stuff you all mentioned

 

[HippieOfDoom]

Actually your assesment on the differation of the two are pretty accurate. Jazz is more the head/solo section/head repeat. Fusion is way more structured and intricate, with lots of unison melodies and countermelodies. I guess I should have been more concise when I was meaning to more of a improvisational style, referencing the 'noodling' comment. Even though fusion songs are generally in a more progressive feel than standard jazz, there is still the somtimes long, drawn out improv section for Mr. Superchops to flail away on. I guess that's more what I meant.

I too am more attracted to complex fusion styles over boring bebop. Because of more of the team effort. I prefer well thought out and complexly written songs over round about soloing with no changes. I think that's where the rock in the jazz/rock/fusion comes in, in the structured melodies aspect of it.

 

[AjDeath]

Anyone who deosn't like instrumental/fussion, listen to Gordian Knot, remember Cynic (you better fuckin remember Cynic!) well take Malone and Reinert and add a couple of guys from bands like King Crimson and you get the picture, the shit definitely jams.

Cheers and brews for all!<Aaron Death>

 

[yourdeadgroom]

Originally posted by HippieOfDoom
there is still the somtimes long, drawn out improv section for Mr. Superchops to flail away on.

Originally posted by HippieOfDoom
Because of more of the team effort. I prefer well thought out and complexly written songs over round about soloing with no changes.

Amen to that. I dug out some DiMeola yesterday after reading this, and my jaw hit the floor (must be a couple of years since I've heard Elegant Gypsy). Hell, in some places it sounds like he's soloing, but then the bass is doing some of what he is, everyone stops and starts and twists all at the same time and I'm thinking "but... but... he's soloing.... you guys shouldn't have any idea what he's doing... " Cool stuff.

 

[xenophobe]

Originally posted by HippieOfDoom

I too am more attracted to complex fusion styles over boring bebop. Because of more of the team effort. I prefer well thought out and complexly written songs over round about soloing with no changes. I think that's where the rock in the jazz/rock/fusion comes in, in the structured melodies aspect of it.

Very well said. That is what I was getting at earlier about mindless riffing. Structure and complexity.

 

[Claire's Horror]

I usually distrust uber-technical music.

 

[Fortunesmith]

Spiral Architecht for instance....very technical and tight, but no memorable melodies or hooks.