So you want a tight mix?

[joeymusicguy]

I think this is somehow obsessive. Yeah right some bands need some tight performance and a lot of edits but this is beyond the acceptable IMO. While MIDI adds features like humanization, others try to sound like machines. This is ironic.

beyond acceptable?

lol... good luck with all your endeavors!

 

[jval]

Also, for anyone intersted in the physics of tuning, the western musical scale has been adapted to allow for playing in any key and thus, even if your guitar is perfectly tuned and intonated, each chord is not necessarily "in tune with itself" (so to speak). Again, not common practice with metal, but in some crazy pop stuff each chord is actually tuned by ear to ensure that every interval is beating pure. For isntance, in the well tempered scale (where each semi tone is evenly spaced) major thirds are actually 13.69 cents flat, major sixths are 15.64 cents flat and minor sevenths are a whopping 31.17 cents flat. If you have a really good ear, you're probably always POd that your guitar just never quite seems in tune but it's not really your fault. That's why that stupid B string is always out. To sound "in" when it's open against the G you've actually gotta tune it a little bit sharp but then when you play intervals which are closer to just intonation, like 4ths and 5ths, the B then always sounds sharp.

Ugh, yeah i read an article on that a little while ago. What a P.I.T.A!!!! i've had to tune by ear in some cases as well. That's when it really pays off to do guitar before bass!
the temp fluctuates a lot on my room as well, so adds to the drama.

 

[joeymusicguy]

Also, for anyone intersted in the physics of tuning, the western musical scale has been adapted to allow for playing in any key and thus, even if your guitar is perfectly tuned and intonated, each chord is not necessarily "in tune with itself" (so to speak). Again, not common practice with metal, but in some crazy pop stuff each chord is actually tuned by ear to ensure that every interval is beating pure. For isntance, in the well tempered scale (where each semi tone is evenly spaced) major thirds are actually 13.69 cents flat, major sixths are 15.64 cents flat and minor sevenths are a whopping 31.17 cents flat. If you have a really good ear, you're probably always POd that your guitar just never quite seems in tune but it's not really your fault. That's why that stupid B string is always out. To sound "in" when it's open against the G you've actually gotta tune it a little bit sharp but then when you play intervals which are closer to just intonation, like 4ths and 5ths, the B then always sounds sharp.

+1

 

[Metaltastic]

I think you just agreed with him

 

[AdamWathan]

I think you just agreed with him

Yeah seriously? Reading comprehension Sturgis come on!

 

[joeymusicguy]

Yeah seriously? Reading comprehension Sturgis come on!

haha im guilty

i usually only skim stuff on here cuz im on here while working

 

[joeymusicguy]

to me: -1

 

[colynomial]

Come on, my posts are always so brief and to the point?! haha...

 

[cloy26]

I'm with mega dave on this,
I would love to see a video on this. I mean, I have yet to try it out, but I am doing a death metal band in 2 weeks and would really like to get that sound. Not because I'm into it, but because I know that's what they want, and no one around here can produce that sound.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

I think tracking like that is a really great way to sound like everyone else doing the modern ITB metal thing.

THIS!

dunno why he's not programming guitars in the first place tbh.

I usually don't even split verses etc into sections...I rather have a little groove in the playing than machine sounding guitars....
and I still get my mixes pretty tight if I want to

no offense, if that works for you, all power to you...etc....
but I for my part consider myself being a MUSIC producer, that means I produce MUSIC, I don't program guitars

I understand that editing is often necessary, and I'm the last one to be opposed to it....I'm all for "whatever makes the mix sound great at the end of the day", but not at the expense of the MUSIC....

I don't have any problem that you work like that. But, acting like that is "the only way" to do it is a bit ridiculous.
.

yeah, I have to admit, it came across a bit arrogant/talking down....
I think there are some pros here (Andy included) that get good mixes without punching in every note.

I only take issue with suggesting that this sort of tracking should be taken as a standard 'matter of practice' for recording metal. People are entitled to track in their own way, and not everybody is required to conform to the standards that will ultimately lead to metal sounding like opening a guitar pro file.

true!

 

[Notuern]

Also, for anyone intersted in the physics of tuning, the western musical scale has been adapted to allow for playing in any key and thus, even if your guitar is perfectly tuned and intonated, each chord is not necessarily "in tune with itself" (so to speak). Again, not common practice with metal, but in some crazy pop stuff each chord is actually tuned by ear to ensure that every interval is beating pure. For isntance, in the even tempered scale (where each semi tone is evenly spaced) major thirds are actually 13.69 cents flat, major sixths are 15.64 cents flat and minor sevenths are a whopping 31.17 cents flat. If you have a really good ear, you're probably always PO'd that your guitar just never quite seems in tune but it's not really your fault. That's why that stupid B string is always out. To sound "in" when it's open against the G you've actually gotta tune it a little bit sharp but then when you play intervals which are closer to just intonation, like 4ths and 5ths, the B then always sounds sharp.

Yeah, for this very reason i tune my guitar differently then most to get a better spread for my style of playing(Mostly A-minor.).
I tune according to the following:

E - Perfect according to a tuner
A - Perfect according to a tuner
D - 2nd fret perfect according to a tuner(E)
G - 2nd fret perfect according to a tuner(A)
B - 3rd fret against open D
E - 4th fret against open G

This way power chords will be clean on the E and A-string, open G-chord is clean, open D chord is clean.
So basically, i temperate my guitar to sound perfectly in A-minor!

 

[Fragle]

I'm with mega dave on this,
I would love to see a video on this. I mean, I have yet to try it out, but I am doing a death metal band in 2 weeks and would really like to get that sound. Not because I'm into it, but because I know that's what they want, and no one around here can produce that sound.

i'm very familiar with death metal....i'd say it all comes down to the player.

with a good player, you'll likely want to take it section by section....any more and the tuning might turn out strange, and you'll (more importantly) loose the feel of the part.
with a bad player, i tend to have him still play the section over and over and comp the best takes together. on the parts where it's still sketchy, punch in.
with a REAL bad player, lick by lick, maybe comp together.

for solos, either lick by lick (bad player), or (once again) a couple of takes and comp together.

anything that still doesn't live up to so called modern standards, editing on the DIs will do just fine.

it's obviously very dependent on the exactly dm subgenre...old school dm like grave etc will need less perfection like tech death metal....i'm mainly refering to the latter with abovementioned remarks.

ok, just as a disclaimer, with a real good player you obviously won't need much of that stuff....however, i have a feeling that especially in tech dm many people tend to write well over their abilities....unfortuntately it would save me a lot of grief if it was otherwise, seeing how i do mostly death metal ^^

 

[colynomial]

@Notuern: Hey that's pretty sweet man- I wonder if there would be an ideal way to tune for "Drop C". One thing that always annoys me is trying to play the 3rds above the octaves on Drop C (or Drop D if you're in standard) power chords. Doing the pinky stretch if you know what I'm talking about. They always sound terrible to me without manual tuning.

 

[Let it burn...]

Sometimes, tightness is not what you want/need.

Flame suit on

 

[jval]

no offense, if that works for you, all power to you...etc....
but I for my part consider myself being a MUSIC producer, that means I produce MUSIC, I don't program guitars

I understand that editing is often necessary, and I'm the last one to be opposed to it....I'm all for "whatever makes the mix sound great at the end of the day", but not at the expense of the MUSIC....

yeah, I have to admit, it came across a bit arrogant/talking down....
I think there are some pros here (Andy included) that get good mixes without punching in every note.

I certainly didn't mean to come across like that, so I apologize if it did.
I'm a musician first and I consider myself a music producer too, not a computer whiz. If you don't know music you have no chance of making a tight record out of a sloppy band.

Anyways I think this thread really illustrates the two different groups we have here. One is the hobbyist engineers/musicians, who are content to be so and who follow their own philosophies about how their music should be recorded. And that is totally fine.. when you're doing it for yourself that's all that matters.

The second group is the people who either are, or who aspire to have a full-time career as an engineer/producer, and those people will be interested in this because it's the real world. You can argue about what "real music" is all you want but here's what it comes down to: A band or label hires you to give them a competitive product that they can sell. Period. That's all. You do what it takes to give them that or you won't have a career. Period. There's no option... do you think you can take $10k from an indie label, and then send out the mixes with a note attached - "Sorry, the drummer didn't hit hard and the guitar player was really sloppy. This is the best they could do!"

I am not trying to be condescending to the purists who don't like technology. I started this thread for those who are in the 2nd group and are interested in how a certain sound is achieved and to help dispel the myth that GEAR or SOFTWARE make a good record.

 

[AdamWathan]

Hey Jordan thanks for starting this thread!

Just curious, when you are punching guitars like this, are you literally having them just play the note in question in the punch section or are they still playing the piece before and after? If you are just playing that one note to get it perfect, how are you doing your crossfades? Also, do you batchfade this sort of stuff using Beat Detective or are you doing it all by hand?

Semi-related question about punching in in ProTools in general, are you toggling your preroll/postroll on and off a lot? I honestly hate setting a preroll when I have highlighted a section to punch in, is there a way to set it up so I can highlight a section to punch, and just manually click where I want to start playing from without losing the selection so it'll still auto punch there? Or a quick keycommand way to toggle the preroll on and off? What's your actual workflow as far as setup and key commands are concerned for doing this sort of meticulous punching? Are you recording the part, then punching over it, or just building it a few notes at a time one phrase after the other?

Sorry for all the questions, would probably be so much easier if I just wrote a song and and came to Guelph and paid you to record it

 

[Force666]

I am not trying to be condescending to the purists who don't like technology. I started this thread for those who are in the 2nd group and are interested in how a certain sound is achieved and to help dispel the myth that GEAR or SOFTWARE make a good record.

jval, not trying to pick on you or anything. Essentially though, that's exactly what you are doing. Using software to make a good record. I guarantee you wouldn't be splicing tape to make all those edits.

Carry on.

 

[AdamWathan]

jval, not trying to pick on you or anything. Essentially though, that's exactly what you are doing. Using software to make a good record. I guarantee you wouldn't be splicing tape to make all those edits.

Carry on.

You are missing his point entirely... He is talking about everyone saying "Oh I need this new Waves Compressor to get my drums to sound punchy! And I need that new Sonnox EQ to get that bite in the attack of my guitar tracks!"

No you don't, you need the source tracks to sound like that in the first place. If that means you have to splice together a million source tracks that's fine, but people are constantly looking for ITB magic to make their shittily played, shittily recorded raw tracks sound like a Sneap production. It doesn't work that way. If you gave Sneap sloppy raw tracks and told him he wasn't allowed to edit anything, his mix would sound like shit because you can't polish a turd with plugins. Editing the raw tracks is a different ballgame then what jval is talking about when he says software...

 

[Metaltastic]

Or a quick keycommand way to toggle the preroll on and off?

I'm almost certain one of the numpad keys does this - of course, being on an MBP, that poses a bit of a problem for you

 

[AdamWathan]

I'm almost certain one of the numpad keys does this - of course, being on an MBP, that poses a bit of a problem for you

I have a wired Apple keyboard with the numpad for the studio but yeah, I do a lot of putzing around in PT in the kitchen on an MBox so I am not too familiar with the numpad shortcuts

I wish this damn thing had at least 3 USB ports, Apple doesn't make a damn bluetooth wireless keyboard with the numpad! And my iLok and Command 8 are comfortably using my other damn ports.