So you want a tight mix?

[Dom Ostarig]

Ok, that's not the main point but timming issues sux; the instruments have to be align to each other for sure, whatever it takes; but some hard editing really hurt my ears...

 

[joeymusicguy]

i think its fair to also realize that there's a huge gap between studio and live

 

[joeymusicguy]

Joey, how bad are some of the bands you've done? I seriously can't imagine a band getting anywhere who is really *that* bad of musicians... I mean, Miss May I, for instance, doesn't have that crazy of guitar work on it... I can't imagine them not really being able to play those parts at least decently.

no offense, but please send me a di of you playing one of those string skipping palm on palm off riffs

i'll run it through the recording with all the same settings

you simply can't get a fully palm muted single note, then a full note right after it, then repeat that 16 times over the riff, at 190 bpm

i've seen guys that CAN do this for real, and live, and it still sounds like shit haha.

 

[AdamWathan]

no offense, but please send me a di of you playing one of those string skipping palm on palm off riffs

i'll run it through the recording with all the same settings

you simply can't get a fully palm muted single note, then a full note right after it, then repeat that 16 times over the riff, at 190 bpm

i've seen guys that CAN do this for real, and live, and it still sounds like shit haha.

+1

Even the easiest riffs in the world take a truly practiced and skilled guitarist to play in a way that they really sound good.

 

[Notuern]

So what you guys are saying that you think its fine to create a riff that is literally impossible to play?
.. thats just.. terrible, music really is dead.

 

[joeymusicguy]

+1

Even the easiest riffs in the world take a truly practiced and skilled guitarist to play in a way that they really sound good.

exactley

i bet a lot of people would vomit if they knew how long it really takes to record the chorus of a pop song. even completely un technical guitar playing can become a disaster in the recording setting.

it depends on the strings, the guitar, the player, the pick, the technique, the tuning, the intonation, the list of variables goes on and on.

this is how the professional world works... for example: ryan harvey showed me a clip he re-amped for someone on here, for a killswitch engage cover

i listened to it and it was sounding great! then it played the first chord of the chorus and it was out of tune. i closed the song and told him it sounded good but was useless due to the incorrect tuning of the chord.

it was because someone wasnt there to say hey, this chord is out of tune.

that very thing is what WE DO. and for anyone to say its not ok, is almost blasphemy. and oh you can argue that "tuning is ok to fix", but would you hold your argument if i told you the reason why the second chord was out of tune is because the guitar player was hitting the strings too hard, probably because he was unable to punch in, and thinking about having to play the entire clip perfectly?

thats why we abuse the ability to punch in where-ever and how-ever we'd like!

 

[joeymusicguy]

So what you guys are saying that you think its fine to create a riff that is literally impossible to play?
.. thats just.. terrible, music really is dead.

no, because you're not getting the point

we're making riffs that sound great, sound better by polishing

they're not impossible to play. they're impossible to play in the way that we portray them. but we do that because it sounds really incredible.

show me one of your riffs. i bet you i wont be impressed. why? because its just some dude playing some rhythm guitar (we're not talking about leads here).

take that same riff, remove all the fret buzz, unwanted finger noise (some is wanted), and everything else wrong with how you're playing it, and SHIT you've got that totally possible playable riff sounding like a million bucks.

now add the rest of the band and the vocals, and WOW who is that band?

 

[Dom Ostarig]

But i think that's not so easy... and that "in the pocket" thing?? that seems easier to get playing than editing.

 

[joeymusicguy]

my final point: if you want to create music that sounds impossible, you should be able to
if you want to change the technique to recording guitar riffs so that they sound musically imperfect, or absolutely perfected, you should be able to
and if you want to argue about any of those points on a messageboard, you should be able to

=]

 

[joeymusicguy]

But i think that's not so easy... and that "in the pocket" thing?? that seems easier to get playing than editing.

pocketing guitar often produces lots of artifacts

stringing seperately recorded parts together doesnt!

its the same concept of recording a vocal, then another vocal echo on another track right afterwards

the second vocal doesnt pop or click when it comes in

take a great guitar performance and try to quantize it a bit cuz its a little off time? thats a mess... sounds like crap too

some editors can do this well, but i find it faster just making a riff up of parts that work together.

 

[AdamWathan]

no, because you're not getting the point

we're making riffs that sound great, sound better by polishing

they're not impossible to play. they're impossible to play in the way that we portray them. but we do that because it sounds really incredible.

show me one of your riffs. i bet you i wont be impressed. why? because its just some dude playing some rhythm guitar (we're not talking about leads here).

take that same riff, remove all the fret buzz, unwanted finger noise (some is wanted), and everything else wrong with how you're playing it, and SHIT you've got that totally possible playable riff sounding like a million bucks.

now add the rest of the band and the vocals, and WOW who is that band?

Exactly!

Take the main riff in "For Whom The Bell Tolls" again as an example... Just that change from the open E powerchord to the G powerchord (you know, dundundun DAH). It's pretty much impossible to play that last E chord chug with the same balls as the ones before it because you have to raise your finger off of the 5th of the chord on the A string to get ready to play the G chord. By punching in, you can really dig into that last chug because you don't have to worry about the change and guess what, it sounds way better and ballsier. This an extreme example but I'm just trying to point out the sort of thing people are talking about here.

Obviously that riff isn't impossible to play, it's easy as hell. But to play every chord in tune and perfectly on time without any string or fret noise? A lot more challenging. And the recording will sound a lot punchier and more aggressive when you can concentrate on digging into the strings and playing everything in tune.

 

[joeymusicguy]

Exactly!

Take the main riff in "For Whom The Bell Tolls" again as an example... Just that change from the open E powerchord to the G powerchord (you know, dundundun DAH). It's pretty much impossible to play that last E chord chug with the same balls as the ones before it because you have to raise your finger off of the 5th of the chord on the A string to get ready to play the G chord. By punching in, you can really dig into that last chug because you don't have to worry about the change and guess what, it sounds way better and ballsier. This an extreme example but I'm just trying to point out the sort of thing people are talking about here.

Obviously that riff isn't impossible to play, it's easy as hell. But to play every chord in tune and perfectly on time without any string or fret noise? A lot more challenging. And the recording will sound a lot punchier and more aggressive when you can concentrate on digging into the strings and playing everything in tune.

+ 10 million

 

[greyskull]

my final point: if you want to create music that sounds impossible, you should be able to
if you want to change the technique to recording guitar riffs so that they sound musically imperfect, or absolutely perfected, you should be able to
and if you want to argue about any of those points on a messageboard, you should be able to

=]

Dillinger Escape plan recorded calculating Infinity... TO TAPE

(not saying i don't disagree with you)

 

[GarethSE]

no, because you're not getting the point

we're making riffs that sound great, sound better by polishing

they're not impossible to play. they're impossible to play in the way that we portray them. but we do that because it sounds really incredible.

show me one of your riffs. i bet you i wont be impressed. why? because its just some dude playing some rhythm guitar (we're not talking about leads here).

take that same riff, remove all the fret buzz, unwanted finger noise (some is wanted), and everything else wrong with how you're playing it, and SHIT you've got that totally possible playable riff sounding like a million bucks.

now add the rest of the band and the vocals, and WOW who is that band?

just another over-edited, over-pocketed band.

 

[joeymusicguy]

Dillinger Escape plan recorded calculating Infinity... TO TAPE

(not saying i don't disagree with you)

yeah but just by watching the studio videos you can tell
they mix technicality with destruction and noise

they're really good at it

 

[joeymusicguy]

just another over-edited, over-pocketed band.

lol let's hear a list of what do you listen to?

if your list checks out, then there's every reason for you to be saying that

 

[joeymusicguy]

for the record / for what its worth

i often find real / honest / raw productions that i absolutely love
there's a ton out there, that are great

and if i met a band that diserved something like that, i'd do it

but if i did any sort of rawness with the bands i work with, it would sound like ass holes.

 

[GarethSE]

recently its all been cryptopsy, sunnO))), gorguts, miles davis and painkiller. D:

but seriously. i find it sort of odd that in the part i quote you're basically saying like, "ok it's a good riff but it needs all the string noise taken out BECAUSE THATS BAAAD"
it's still the same riff. the same notes played in the same rhythm in the same order, and isn't that what matters and NOT the string noise?
its natural anyway. humans are by nature, flawed creatures. to make mistakes when we play music is perfectly natural and its just a shame that people have become so used to hearing really edited stuff. it's gotten so much now that for most people to hear a real performance, scratchy string noises intact, they start getting weirded out over it.

it's all about the music, right? so i just find it weird that so much value is placed on editing when a good song will speak for itself.

 

[GarethSE]

for the record / for what its worth

i often find real / honest / raw productions that i absolutely love
there's a ton out there, that are great

and if i met a band that diserved something like that, i'd do it

but if i did any sort of rawness with the bands i work with, it would sound like ass holes.

record some old school death metal or something

 

[Notuern]

no, because you're not getting the point

we're making riffs that sound great, sound better by polishing

they're not impossible to play. they're impossible to play in the way that we portray them. but we do that because it sounds really incredible.

Well.. i wasnt that serious to begin with, even though i really dislike how most people seem to think that this is ok to do.

show me one of your riffs. i bet you i wont be impressed. why? because its just some dude playing some rhythm guitar (we're not talking about leads here).

So what you are saying is that you wouldnt be impressed, because im not a computer triggering pre-recorded notes?
Anyways.. im not in to that type of music, and in all honesty, i would probably think that this type of music sounds like complete shit no matter how its edited/tracked/mixed etc.

take that same riff, remove all the fret buzz, unwanted finger noise (some is wanted), and everything else wrong with how you're playing it, and SHIT you've got that totally possible playable riff sounding like a million bucks.

Yeah, now lets take away the player and put a robot there instead, that is programmed to play the parts you feed it with, thats even better!
OR WAIT! Get rid of the robot! Lets use keyboards instead, because the guitars string doesnt oscillate evenly enough!

Nah, but seriously, to me, this is somewhat crossing the border of whats ok.
And tbh, id rather have a shitty sloppy as fuck player with some real emotion put in to his playing, then some downtuned computermade riff.

If you want to work this way, and the people you record think its fine, then fine!
Thats all great and dandy, but to me this is all about killing whats human about music.. kind of like redrawing a beautiful oil-painting in photoshop to get rid of the irregularities and brush strokes.