So you want a tight mix?

[jval]

Band - we wanna sound as tight as x band
engineer - let me hear you play
band - CHUGa CHUGaaa DJENt ggg DJENTTeh
engineer - well you don't sound like x band but if that's what you want pay me $$$ it will sound like CHUG CHUG DJENT DJENT
band - we have $80
engineer - FML

hahaha. nice one, very true.
the band I posted, one of their guitar players kept telling me he was going to finish the guitars in 15 minutes because that's all it took on the last recording. I kept saying, "ok, we'll see about that..."
8 hours later on the same song I think he got the point

it's funny, every once in a while I'll get a young player who thinks he's a purist. I say "ok, i want this part really perfect so we're going to do it half speed." He's all afraid of being a phony and starts to fight it....
I ask him, "Who are your favorite bands?" (answer) "Ok, they all do this." And on we go.

 

[jval]

yo jval
you from toronto?

close to it

 

[cloy26]

I ask him, "Who are your favorite bands?" (answer) "Ok, they all do this." And on we go.

yes.

 

[AdamWathan]

Well.. i wasnt that serious to begin with, even though i really dislike how most people seem to think that this is ok to do.



So what you are saying is that you wouldnt be impressed, because im not a computer triggering pre-recorded notes?
Anyways.. im not in to that type of music, and in all honesty, i would probably think that this type of music sounds like complete shit no matter how its edited/tracked/mixed etc.



Yeah, now lets take away the player and put a robot there instead, that is programmed to play the parts you feed it with, thats even better!
OR WAIT! Get rid of the robot! Lets use keyboards instead, because the guitars string doesnt oscillate evenly enough!

Nah, but seriously, to me, this is somewhat crossing the border of whats ok.
And tbh, id rather have a shitty sloppy as fuck player with some real emotion put in to his playing, then some downtuned computermade riff.

If you want to work this way, and the people you record think its fine, then fine!
Thats all great and dandy, but to me this is all about killing whats human about music.. kind of like redrawing a beautiful oil-painting in photoshop to get rid of the irregularities and brush strokes.

I used to be completely anti-editing and agreed with you on all points.

Then I started recording bands and realized that everyone fucking sucks and I was totally spoiled growing up when jamming with musicians who could count to 4.

Most of us that post on here are musicians and because we are also hobbyist engineers, we know how to play tightly and know how something needs to be played to record well. No offense to the bedroom guys only recording their own stuff here, but until you actually go and try to record a band where nobody can fucking play, you are never going to understand the need for this sort of piecing together and editing, I know I didn't.

 

[-J-]

kinda cool peeps do this sorta thing. if I was in a rental car with XM radio, I'd probably change the station from liquid metal to outlaw country or hair nation when a song using it came on, but oh well, I'm older, what do you expect?

on a similar note, if this was the technique used on dethklok's "d-d-d-d-d-d-d-die!" vocal effect, it's awesome! [if not, how'd they do that?]

 

[plague_rider]

on a similar note, if this was the technique used on dethklok's "d-d-d-d-d-d-d-die!" vocal effect, it's awesome! [if not, how'd they do that?]

Lasercannon Deth Sentece...

awesome song...

pretty sure he does that bit au naturale...

 

[Notuern]

I used to be completely anti-editing and agreed with you on all points.

Then I started recording bands and realized that everyone fucking sucks and I was totally spoiled growing up when jamming with musicians who could count to 4.

Most of us that post on here are musicians and because we are also hobbyist engineers, we know how to play tightly and know how something needs to be played to record well. No offense to the bedroom guys only recording their own stuff here, but until you actually go and try to record a band where nobody can fucking play, you are never going to understand the need for this sort of piecing together and editing, I know I didn't.

Again, im not "anti-editing".. i edit allot of my own tracks.
But what i dont do is punch in for every single note and chord through an entire song.

I recorded this band a while ago: http://www.myspace.com/noideaaaa (Not my recordings on their myspace anymore though.)
So trust me, i know how fucking horrible it may be working with bad musicians.

.. Please, listen to the song "let go"!

 

[plague_rider]

...wasn't there a thread not too long ago and i remember one of you guys stating how funny it would be to make phil use an auto-tune...

this thread kinda brings to light how many bands out there are either getting ideas above their station or just expecting twice the success with half the work

i've also read interviews with andy about how its all the older bands who will rehearse and rehearse to get it right in nearly one take
(there was also an excerpt about some of the older players not needing higher-gain amps and active pickups cause they play harder, but i'm not going there with how much i love my EMGs and how many of you guys have beautiful ENGL/Peavey/Splawn amps)

 

[AdamWathan]

Again, im not "anti-editing".. i edit allot of my own tracks.
But what i dont do is punch in for every single note and chord through an entire song.

I recorded this band a while ago: http://www.myspace.com/noideaaaa (Not my recordings on their myspace anymore though.)
So trust me, i know how fucking horrible it may be working with bad musicians.

.. Please, listen to the song "let go"!

Haha, well alright, the thing is I don't believe jval is saying that for every song ever recorded by every band in his studio he needs to record one note, punch in next note, punch in next note, etc, etc, etc. Just that in situations where bands can't play as tight as they think they can that this is what you have to do to end up with a good sounding mix. And even with bands who can play very well, sometimes it's worth considering doing stuff like this to deal with issues such as tuning, or parts that are spread out far across the fretboard making it difficult to nail it as cleanly as it would sound in a perfect world.

Check out this band: http://www.myspace.com/kingdoms

Jordan did all their stuff and it doesn't sound robotic or edited to me at all, and I'm sure that's because these guys can really play and although I'm sure the drums were tightened up a bit and there were a lot of parts punched in and out, I'm sure for the most part these guys are playing full riffs and phrases. This band actually rehearses at my house and are some of the most talented musicians I've met. So don't write jval off as a one trick pony modern metal editing robot engineer, I think the whole point of this thread was to enlighten people on how to get that perfect sound in unperfect conditions, not to argue that this is the only way to do anything ever.

 

[SocialNumb]

@plague_rider
Dude, if I ever hear Phil sounding like a corny auto-fag I might consider shooting myself. I don't mind the use of say a vocoder to ad an effect as long as it fits the music but this extreme auto-tune just has to stop. It's not funny anymore.

 

[kev]

Yeah, for this very reason i tune my guitar differently then most to get a better spread for my style of playing(Mostly A-minor.).
I tune according to the following:

E - Perfect according to a tuner
A - Perfect according to a tuner
D - 2nd fret perfect according to a tuner(E)
G - 2nd fret perfect according to a tuner(A)
B - 3rd fret against open D
E - 4th fret against open G

This way power chords will be clean on the E and A-string, open G-chord is clean, open D chord is clean.
So basically, i temperate my guitar to sound perfectly in A-minor!

This is Steve Vai's answer to the temp issue which i think is pretty cool.

A lot of people seem to wonder why they can't take their mixes to the next level when they've only invested an hour or two into getting the source material ready for mixing.

You should not have to polish a turd, but the client should not present a turd to be polished.

Word!

Anyway, not a fan of the crazy editing. It's my opinion that people shouldnt be playing (or attempting in this case!) music where they need edits this bad. They should be practicing their ass off, like every other kid did back in the day, cos they are gonna be one hella big disapointment live. These tools should be used for emergency purposes only, just like auto tune and all the rest.

In the long run are the tools going erode music completely and render everybody lazy and shite? Or are they used by the best of the best to get their records just that little bit better?

P.S This has nothing against the original poster, if you do it for a living you're gonna hit this all the time at the moment I'm sure. I just like listening to well produced music from bands who can play, not crab core tuned to perfection

 

[Notuern]

Nice point dude. Have you seen the Steve Vai guitar that was designed to get over this? The frets are weird as hell!

Yeah, ive actually tried one out!
Absolutely awesome when it comes to the temperation, but it feels weird playing some patterns and doing bends/vibratos on them.. kind of like the string moves up and down! o,0
But i guess you get used to it pretty fast if you play one every day!

Anyway, not a fan of the crazy editing. It's my opinion that people shouldnt be playing (or attempting in this case!) music where they need edits this bad. They should be practicing their ass off, like every other kid did back in the day, cos they are gonna be one hella big disapointment live. These tools should be used for emergency purposes only, just like auto tune and all the rest.

In the long run are the tools going erode music completely and render everybody lazy and shite? Or are they used by the best of the best to get their records just that little bit better?

P.S This has nothing against the original poster, if you do it for a living you're gonna hit this all the time at the moment I'm sure.

This is basically my opinion on the subject.
Editing can be something good, but when pushed to this level, im really not comfortable with it.. but as you are saying, this might be the easiest way to get a stable place in the business.
However, i doubt editing this much will get you that far.. my cousin sure as hell doesn't edit like this, but he still gets to work with bands like Opeth and Amon Amarth(Bigger bands coming up with him as a producer.), so im going to strongly oppose the statement that you "have to do this" to stay on top.

.. im sorry if it feels like im bashing on you Joey, its just that you are the one most open about this stuff on this forum, so you're just a good example!

 

[Metaltastic]

This is Steve Vai's answer to the temp issue which i think is pretty cool.

Steve Vai plays a Caparison?

 

[jval]

Interesting for Adam to mention Kingdoms. Yes they're all good players, especially the main guitarist Chuck.
The two songs "Biltmore" and "Split the sky" were done earlier this year in a pretty meticulous fashion similar to what I'm explaining here. But the other tracks up there were done over a year ago, in my old studio where I couldn't hear things as clearly and before I started refining these techniques.
Try comparing those tracks and see if you can hear the difference. In the old ones, he's playing pretty big sections all in one take. I can hear minor flaws and a couple tuning issues. Overall the songs come across well but to me, those newer songs just hit so much harder because everything is tighter, cleaner, and clearer. See what you think.

It's a good example of someone who can play the parts well, but we still need to go that extra mile to get the sound we want.

the good thing is that a player like that can finish those 2 songs in 7 hours, where a poor player would have taken twice as long.

 

[Nitsuj]

also, i'd like to mention that if i had the ability to forget how to edit things to make them sound better, i probably would

in this alternate life, i would just record bands exactley as they sounded

i cannot say what conclusion that would bring, but it would be interesting to discover

the closest i can get you, from my work, is plagues by prada. we recorded most of it live, and there was no click.

Dude,

I respect the dedication and work you're putting in towards perfecting your craft. But I hope that one day when you've made enough money from all the work you've done, you're gonna move on and be able to work with credible bands. To me, its all about capturing the essence of the performance and keeping it real. If the music of this decade is all about editing till the cows come home, thanks but no thanks, I simply do not have the capacity to relate to that.

All the best,

 

[Notuern]

This is Steve Vai's answer to the temp issue which i think is pretty cool.

Hey, dont give Vai credit for Anders Thidells invention!
The only Swedish inventor that actually made a difference..... *cough*

 

[kev]

Steve Vai plays a Caparison?

Muhaha You know I posted that just so that when i got pulled up on it by you, I would get to post vai porn with the real thing in action?

Or it could be because I have a fucking terrible flu which wont go away and I cant tell cap from iby today. hahaha.

Either way, VAI PORN!!!!

Hey, dont give Vai credit for Anders Thidells invention!
The only Swedish inventor that actually made a difference..... *cough*

Ahh semantics.... see it's Steve Vai's answer to it, that he hijacked from somebody else, not necessarily is he the inventor
I had no idea it was Swedish tho. My last favourite thing from sweden was in flames. The pirate bay wasnt a bad idea.... lol

Slightly off topic, but I have no chance of playing one of these methinks. Any ideas how much they go for? Not sure if they were ever in mass production. I know Steve has fitted these necks to all his guitars now though!

 

[plague_rider]

@plague_rider
Dude, if I ever hear Phil sounding like a corny auto-fag I might consider shooting myself. I don't mind the use of say a vocoder to ad an effect as long as it fits the music but this extreme auto-tune just has to stop. It's not funny anymore.

dude i'm there with you on that

the one fault i've found with anyone against Jvals style of recording is that we do this thing in the mix with drums so often... ok we're not dropping drummers in, but then drums are easier to edit to how we want than guitars...

It's a good example of someone who can play the parts well, but we still need to go that extra mile to get the sound we want.

I'm not ripping you for the work you do mate, cause this shows you have one hell of a work ethic, but theres goin the extra mile and theres carrying the band the entire distance; bands should take some responsibility to get themselves sounding more professional before the take...

its like was mentioned before, you shouldnt be expected to polish a turd, but then the band should know that they shouldnt be presenting you with a turd to polish

i hate hearing a band kick ass on CD then seeing them suck sack on stage...

 

[jval]

I'm not ripping you for the work you do mate, cause this shows you have one hell of a work ethic, but theres goin the extra mile and theres carrying the band the entire distance; bands should take some responsibility to get themselves sounding more professional before the take...

its like was mentioned before, you shouldnt be expected to polish a turd, but then the band should know that they shouldnt be presenting you with a turd to polish

once again, missing the point.
this isn't all about editing guys who can't play guitar. it's not like all these bands come in and can't play their riffs at all.
like joey described it's about doing things a certain way to get a certain sound. So much of this type of approach stems from limitations of tuning, intonation etc as much as actual playing.
and I still force the player to get each little part the best he possibly can. it seems like you guys think I record garbage and edit it after. No, on the contrary this thread is about making it right ON THE WAY IN!

ok, I think i've said the same thing enough times now... back to work...

edit - you have a good point though, i bet every person here quantizes drums every single time. yet somehow, altering a guitar performance is blasphemy...

 

[darthjujuu]

just saw this thread and i'm way late and only read the first two pages but jval, i am 100% in your corner on absolutely everything. and structures sounds 100% un-improvable. they could not possibly have gotten a better, more appropriate result. i'm sure their label (if they have one) would agree.