So you want a tight mix?

[jval]

just saw this thread and i'm way late and only read the first two pages but jval, i am 100% in your corner on absolutely everything. and structures sounds 100% un-improvable. they could not possibly have gotten a better, more appropriate result. i'm sure their label (if they have one) would agree.

they didn't when they recorded their EP, but they're in talks now thanks to my evil recording techniques .
I sense massive flame war after that comment...

thanks dude.

 

[kev]

they didn't when they recorded their EP, but they're in talks now thanks to my evil recording techniques .
I sense massive flame war after that comment...

thanks dude.

 

[colynomial]

If anyone's interested I just tried doing 4 bars of the "track one note at a time" thing. I usually just slip edit after the fact when I'm editing guitars but the performance has gotta be pretty "on" to avoid really obvious artifacts.

Anyways, the before clip sounds pretty silly- basically just played a few notes at a time through Pod Farm at 140bpm. Chopped and quantized DI, then switched over to tick based tracks in PT and upped the tempo to 180.

Obviously I could play the riff without chopping but I just wanted to see how quickly this would go. Took about 5 minutes. Don't mind the guitar tone. I suspect Joey/Jordan would be more meticulous with the tuning too.

Before: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/818500/Guitars_Before.wav
After: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/818500/Guitars_After.wav
With Stuff: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/818500/SnapPOD.mp3

 

[Notuern]

Ahh semantics.... see it's Steve Vai's answer to it, that he hijacked from somebody else, not necessarily is he the inventor
I had no idea it was Swedish tho. My last favourite thing from sweden was in flames. The pirate bay wasnt a bad idea.... lol

Slightly off topic, but I have no chance of playing one of these methinks. Any ideas how much they go for? Not sure if they were ever in mass production. I know Steve has fitted these necks to all his guitars now though!

Actually, its Thidell that makes Vai's necks!

The company is called true temperament, and they go for 795$.. more if you want your neck converted to true temperament.

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=8&sgo=2

 

[LeSedna]

So what you guys are saying that you think its fine to create a riff that is literally impossible to play?
.. thats just.. terrible, music really is dead.

Agreed on that part. I really don't think forgetting the natural characteristics of an instrument normal. There is no instrument that is by essence perfect. I understand the process being used to record a riff in 2 parts like metallica did, because it's the main riff and this very one would benefit of it, but there is a limit between the two extremes.

Also, I don't think the fact that the label was happy in the end to be a pure victory. For you it is, of course, you did a great job, they are happy, and will likely come back and you will be able to be paid and live with it. It's all good for you, and I'm glad for you you did well, we all would do the same.

What is bad, is that it serves the current flow of too fake music. For me, editing would be fixing imperfections of a good take, that sort of take you say "that's too bad for that part, I don't wanna delete it". Editing without even recording a full phrase is absolutely anti-musical to me, I don't even see the point in the end, hell, it doesn't even sound good in the end ! I know we all don't have the same definition of what sounds good, but hey..

Shame is that labels are happy, because they will sell the CD more. Then people will say "that sounds good", and buy it. So they want more, and so the label wants more and more. The result is that people forget what is music because of this, it's feeding the evil, this is not 100% music.

 

[AudioPhile777]

it's important to realize that it takes a hell of a lot more than slate samples and Waves plugs to get a tight mix.

SAY IT ISN'T SO!!!!!

 

[wishtheend]

This type of editing just seems to be moving it all one step closer to making metal purely sequenced music. I understand you are recording real audio (guitar, drums, vocals), but to the degree you are manipulating it - it just becomes fake. I'm sure if there was a VST guitar real enough you would sooner sequence this music rather than record one note at a time/riffs at half speed/etc.

I appreciate the tools that allow us to achieve that certain tightness and punch we all love, but I do not agree with this method at all. Give me a little flaw with some soul

 

[006]

This thread has gone from what jval was trying to show us - what everybody wanting to do this for a living will have to be doing sometimes - to people whining about it making it "fake." Shut. Up. Already. Jesus.

 

[Nuno Filipe]

beyond acceptable?

lol... good luck with all your endeavors!

What I said is only a personal opinion. This type of editing is understandable for Technical Death Metal bands like Necrophagist or Sleep Terror because everything has to be almost perfect. But punching every 5 seconds in metalcore or hardcore band? It´s a waste of time IMO. I heard the music that Jval did with his huge editing and I didnt heard a big difference for a normal editing. This kind of editings in these styles of music just make sense if the musicians are really, really bad. But this is only my opinion.

 

[Metaltastic]

This thread has gone from what jval was trying to show us - what everybody wanting to do this for a living will have to be doing sometimes - to people whining about it making it "fake." Shut. Up. Already. Jesus.

Seriously, it's ALL already been said

 

[SocialNumb]

Ok, about the tuning and retuning thing. I'm trying to understand this. So no two chords will be "in tune"? It's the actual switch of the chords that causes this? So are you tuning the guitar to each chord or just retuning like normal before each chord/note/phrase is recorded?

 

[wishtheend]

^ Especially agreement with the oposition towards oposition. Perhaps the "fake" word could have been dropped from my post, but I think this is a very appropriate thread to debate technique. Hell, isn't that why we are here?

I appreciate the OP started this to show off his technique, but from the get-go it was presented in a way that "THIS is how it's done" and while I can see how it is totally applicable to his current situation and the type of sound he wants, I think some people are going to see this as the only way to get a certain result. At least to me, it seems like he's saying even good performances won't sound as "good" (not sure that's the word) as something edited to such a level.

It's probably just because it's the common trend I see on the rise, but as people here are potentially the trend setters for the next few years - I'm afraid to see this become the "standard" way of doing things.

 

[AdamWathan]

Ok, about the tuning and retuning thing. I'm trying to understand this. So no two chords will be "in tune"? It's the actual switch of the chords that causes this? So are you tuning the guitar to each chord or just retuning like normal before each chord/note/phrase is recorded?

Tune each chord, so if all open strings are in tune but a powerchord at the 9th fret doesn't sound right, you get the guy to fret that chord and play the notes while someone else tunes the pegs so that the chord is in tune. All you're doing is fixing intonation problems.

 

[Notuern]

Ok, about the tuning and retuning thing. I'm trying to understand this. So no two chords will be "in tune"? It's the actual switch of the chords that causes this? So are you tuning the guitar to each chord or just retuning like normal before each chord/note/phrase is recorded?

Each fret on the neck is a little bit out of tune in comparison to the open strings and 12th fret, which causes that problem.. but seriously, if you have that big problems that you have to retune between every chord, either the guitar or the player is FUBAR.

 

[AdamWathan]

What I said is only a personal opinion. This type of editing is understandable for Technical Death Metal bands like Necrophagist or Sleep Terror because everything has to be almost perfect. But punching every 5 seconds in metalcore or hardcore band? It´s a waste of time IMO. I heard the music that Jval did with his huge editing and I didnt heard a big difference for a normal editing. This kind of editings in these styles of music just make sense if the musicians are really, really bad. But this is only my opinion.

Did jval post an unedited version to compare to because if he did I missed it :Smug:

It doesn't sound hugely edited, THAT'S THE POINT. You didn't have to record it yourself so you don't know what the raw tracks would've sounded like so how can you say you can't hear a difference between this meticulously edited track and a track you've never heard and was never ever recorded?

It's not supposed to sound edited, it's supposed to sound like it was played perfectly.

 

[Notuern]

what everybody wanting to do this for a living will have to be doing sometimes

Not true at all.
My cousin has as i previously stated worked with Opeth and Amon Amarth, bigger bands are coming up.. but im pretty damn sure he hasnt recorded a song by punching in every fucking note through the entire song.
Editing is a necessary evil, but this is just so extreme that you might as well record every note on the guitar muted and unmuted, and sequence instead.

to people whining about it making it "fake." Shut. Up. Already. Jesus.

I thought a public forum had the intention of people sharing their views on a subject, but you are right, lets be the first online forum with the rule: "Everybody think the same thing, or be banned!"

 

[SocialNumb]

Tune each chord, so if all open strings are in tune but a powerchord at the 9th fret doesn't sound right, you get the guy to fret that chord and play the notes while someone else tunes the pegs so that the chord is in tune. All you're doing is fixing intonation problems.

Each fret on the neck is a little bit out of tune in comparison to the open strings and 12th fret, which causes that problem.. but seriously, if you have that big problems that you have to retune between every chord, either the guitar or the player is FUBAR.

Ok, got it. That has to be torture man.

Thanks for the info. I can't help but think, why not sequence the whole thing? Wait, isn't that what this technique is?(in a sense) Is there any actual performance going on other than a chord strum?

Honestly I don't have that much against this at all. I use methods some what close to this when doing my glitch/stutter shit. Take a beat, cut it up into tiny slices and have at it. 10 secs of music can take forever Micro editing. Never actually tried doing it to whole song tho.

All in all I still like hearing a real performance.

 

[Nuno Filipe]

Did jval post an unedited version to compare to because if he did I missed it :Smug:

It doesn't sound hugely edited, THAT'S THE POINT. You didn't have to record it yourself so you don't know what the raw tracks would've sounded like so how can you say you can't hear a difference between this meticulously edited track and a track you've never heard and was never ever recorded?

It's not supposed to sound edited, it's supposed to sound like it was played perfectly.

To me it doesn´t sound more tight or perfect than others without lots of editing.

 

[black.death]

interesting thread.

 

[Cacoph0ny]

Just my opinion but I really don't see wasting the time to do this. Is there really that big of a difference between recording note-by-note, than section by section?

I'd be interested in hearing that Structures song recorded in small sections and see how much different it sounds.