yea i know it's complicated. but like, break it down. it's confusing being at this job and hearing about ONE SIDE OF IT like, all the time.
someone (alex?) explain this whole Israeli and Palestinian thing to me
- Thread starter minxnim
- Start date
avi
W3RK3R
avi
W3RK3R
on a vaguely related note, my mom sent me this today: http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200508/the-israeli-guidebook-1.html
xfer
I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS
mwa ha ha ha! okay step one DON'T LISTEN TO MINDSPELL!
basically, a zillion years ago the Jews came to the area of Israel and settled it, driving out the previous inhabitants, who later died out. (I don't think they were even Arabs, but some other ethnic group). eventually the Jews got driven out by still unrelated ethnic groups. at some point the driving-outs ended, the land became under occupation by the Romans, Ottomans, British, etc., and the Jewish and Arab inhabitants had to live under those conditions without an independent state. (the reason I go into this is to explain that nobody living there now has a "more legitimate" claim to the land than anyone else).
so, the 20th century comes and both the Arabs and Jews are doing independence movement stuff. both of them have their moderates, their militias, and their extremist groups who set off bombs and stuff. finally the British are like "Time to go!" and withdraw in 1948.
they draw up a plan to partition the land into two areas--one for each ethnicity. The Palestinians get the lion's share, but the Jews say Yes anyway. The Palestinians are unwilling to give ANY land to the Jews, so they say No.
So a war breaks out, and six Arab armies invade to figt alongside the Palestinians, and the Jews somehow kick everyone else's ass, and end up with a lot more than the original agreement. The Palestinians say "Okay, now we accept the agreement" and the Jews are like "Too late, dudes". A lot of Palestinians have fled to the West Bank and Gaza Strip during (which remain Palestinian--the West Bank is part of Jordan at this point) the fighting and lost their homes and stuff.
behind the scenes, the Arab leaders of repressive states around Israel (Syria, Egypt, to some degree Jordan, Iraq, etc.) see the Palestinians as a great opportunity, so they make them a huge cause to refocus their publics' ire away from their own evilness, so they do all this stuff to keep the Palestinians dispossessed and stateless (like supporting violent terrorism on the part of Palestinians, knowing it will lead to Israeli military responses...or keeping shitty, crime- and terror-ridden "refugee camps" full of Palestinians in their territories and not granting them citizenship...or turning the public against any Arab leader who suggests a moderate, peaceful solution and calling them a Zionist...etc.)
1967 comes around, and Egypt, Syria, and Transjordan attack again. (Syria is basically the behind-the-scenes mastermind and tricks Egypt into starting the war by closing Israel's ports, and strong-arms Jordan into joining the battle against its wishes). Israel beats them all up again. partway through the war Jordan attacks from the West Bank, precipitating an Israeli invasion; the Jordanians retreat and Israel now owns the West Bank. Jordan is seriously sick of the Palestinians and is pretty glad to get rid of it.
so here's the whole occupation thing, and what's going on today: Israel decides that it's going to occupy Gaza and the West Bank (and the Sinai and the Golan Heights and some other places) and trade them for peace. if the Arab states will recognize Israel and stop declaring war on it, they get the land. some right-wing Jews, however, think the land is OURS FROM GOD and do NOT want to trade it for peace.
so, decades pass, the Arab states won't trade land for peace (why would they? it's in their best interests to keep the Palestinians oppressed and stateless and Israel the villain), and Israel starts settling the occupied lands, driven by those right-wing religious Jews.
finally (today) Israel decides enough is enough and pulls all its settlers out of Gaza--all troops, too, leaving the territory entirely in the hands of the Palestinians. the hazy idea is that perhaps one day the West Bank will be the same, perhaps if a non-terror-fueled, modern democratic Palestine emerges in Gaza. of course, the evil right-wingers don't intend to pull out of the West Bank ever and see this as an opportunity to finalize a shitty, tiny Palestinian state.
who knows if it will work out. Hamas has a ton of power in Gaza and may end up with a leadership role, which is problematic because their charter denies Israel the right to exist at all, which is (to say the least) not conducive to peace. the challenge is promoting a moderate, secular Palestinian leadership that believes in a two-state solution, i guess.
there. questions? inaccuracies?
basically, a zillion years ago the Jews came to the area of Israel and settled it, driving out the previous inhabitants, who later died out. (I don't think they were even Arabs, but some other ethnic group). eventually the Jews got driven out by still unrelated ethnic groups. at some point the driving-outs ended, the land became under occupation by the Romans, Ottomans, British, etc., and the Jewish and Arab inhabitants had to live under those conditions without an independent state. (the reason I go into this is to explain that nobody living there now has a "more legitimate" claim to the land than anyone else).
so, the 20th century comes and both the Arabs and Jews are doing independence movement stuff. both of them have their moderates, their militias, and their extremist groups who set off bombs and stuff. finally the British are like "Time to go!" and withdraw in 1948.
they draw up a plan to partition the land into two areas--one for each ethnicity. The Palestinians get the lion's share, but the Jews say Yes anyway. The Palestinians are unwilling to give ANY land to the Jews, so they say No.
So a war breaks out, and six Arab armies invade to figt alongside the Palestinians, and the Jews somehow kick everyone else's ass, and end up with a lot more than the original agreement. The Palestinians say "Okay, now we accept the agreement" and the Jews are like "Too late, dudes". A lot of Palestinians have fled to the West Bank and Gaza Strip during (which remain Palestinian--the West Bank is part of Jordan at this point) the fighting and lost their homes and stuff.
behind the scenes, the Arab leaders of repressive states around Israel (Syria, Egypt, to some degree Jordan, Iraq, etc.) see the Palestinians as a great opportunity, so they make them a huge cause to refocus their publics' ire away from their own evilness, so they do all this stuff to keep the Palestinians dispossessed and stateless (like supporting violent terrorism on the part of Palestinians, knowing it will lead to Israeli military responses...or keeping shitty, crime- and terror-ridden "refugee camps" full of Palestinians in their territories and not granting them citizenship...or turning the public against any Arab leader who suggests a moderate, peaceful solution and calling them a Zionist...etc.)
1967 comes around, and Egypt, Syria, and Transjordan attack again. (Syria is basically the behind-the-scenes mastermind and tricks Egypt into starting the war by closing Israel's ports, and strong-arms Jordan into joining the battle against its wishes). Israel beats them all up again. partway through the war Jordan attacks from the West Bank, precipitating an Israeli invasion; the Jordanians retreat and Israel now owns the West Bank. Jordan is seriously sick of the Palestinians and is pretty glad to get rid of it.
so here's the whole occupation thing, and what's going on today: Israel decides that it's going to occupy Gaza and the West Bank (and the Sinai and the Golan Heights and some other places) and trade them for peace. if the Arab states will recognize Israel and stop declaring war on it, they get the land. some right-wing Jews, however, think the land is OURS FROM GOD and do NOT want to trade it for peace.
so, decades pass, the Arab states won't trade land for peace (why would they? it's in their best interests to keep the Palestinians oppressed and stateless and Israel the villain), and Israel starts settling the occupied lands, driven by those right-wing religious Jews.
finally (today) Israel decides enough is enough and pulls all its settlers out of Gaza--all troops, too, leaving the territory entirely in the hands of the Palestinians. the hazy idea is that perhaps one day the West Bank will be the same, perhaps if a non-terror-fueled, modern democratic Palestine emerges in Gaza. of course, the evil right-wingers don't intend to pull out of the West Bank ever and see this as an opportunity to finalize a shitty, tiny Palestinian state.
who knows if it will work out. Hamas has a ton of power in Gaza and may end up with a leadership role, which is problematic because their charter denies Israel the right to exist at all, which is (to say the least) not conducive to peace. the challenge is promoting a moderate, secular Palestinian leadership that believes in a two-state solution, i guess.
there. questions? inaccuracies?
thank you! this makes sense.
p.s. 5 coworkers have relatives that were refusing to leave their houses until yesterday i guess they set the places on fire!
p.s. 5 coworkers have relatives that were refusing to leave their houses until yesterday i guess they set the places on fire!
xfer
I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS
they think "IT'S OURS!"
the Israeli government is, of course, partly responsible--they let the right-wing ideas run semi-rampant, because they figured (rightly) that it would put pressure on the Arab states to get their shit in order and achieve a solution soon, before the settling covered the whole territory. but the problem is that Israel basically made these iron promises (to the rightwingers) not to stop settling in order keep up the pressure, and the Arab states/Palestinians never got their shit in order, so this settlement stuff has dragged out for DECADES longer than planned and keeps getting worse and worse.
it is seriously awful. in israel, the democratic mechanism and structures of the state keep the religious assholes from doing huge amounts of evil, but they still get in plenty. Palestine doesn't have those protections because it was never allowed to develop a state, so its religious assholes have done huge amounts of evil. 10% of Palestinians used to be Christians, but now the number of Palestinian Christians in Palestine is tiny because of the Islamic-Sharia law assholes driving the war/liberation movement (among other reasons). the Palestinian Authority is corrupt (but much better than when Arafat was in charge) and Hamas and Islamic Jihad control some Palestinian areas and have broad sympathy among Palestinians, which goes to show that if you identify a common racial enemy, people will overlook the most horrible things about their allies.
the Israeli government is, of course, partly responsible--they let the right-wing ideas run semi-rampant, because they figured (rightly) that it would put pressure on the Arab states to get their shit in order and achieve a solution soon, before the settling covered the whole territory. but the problem is that Israel basically made these iron promises (to the rightwingers) not to stop settling in order keep up the pressure, and the Arab states/Palestinians never got their shit in order, so this settlement stuff has dragged out for DECADES longer than planned and keeps getting worse and worse.
it is seriously awful. in israel, the democratic mechanism and structures of the state keep the religious assholes from doing huge amounts of evil, but they still get in plenty. Palestine doesn't have those protections because it was never allowed to develop a state, so its religious assholes have done huge amounts of evil. 10% of Palestinians used to be Christians, but now the number of Palestinian Christians in Palestine is tiny because of the Islamic-Sharia law assholes driving the war/liberation movement (among other reasons). the Palestinian Authority is corrupt (but much better than when Arafat was in charge) and Hamas and Islamic Jihad control some Palestinian areas and have broad sympathy among Palestinians, which goes to show that if you identify a common racial enemy, people will overlook the most horrible things about their allies.
i get this vague feeling a few of my coworkers are like super right wing by the way they're talking about this stuff...
FalseTodd
Skirt Wizard
xfer
I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS
my dad has like this intense understanding of all political things. he knows everything about every country i've ever asked him about, my mom also. i'm like the family idiot. "where's palestine?"
next time someone asks me this i will just be like "WELL *ALEX* said this so i mean obviously it's right..."
NAD
What A Horrible Night To Have A Curse
mindspell
vvv Jake's ass vvv
Not having read Alex's comments because he doesn't want me to add anything to the situation but I will say this: While a nice diplomatic gesture on the part of the Israeli government this pull out is completly retarded. Why does these people can't live one beside the other. Having people move from their homes seperates once again the two in more ways than I can think of. I wouldn't have done a pull out. I would have opened the Gaza strip to Palestinian settlements and have Israelis that want to leave leave.
0sm0se
Mr. Negativity
xfer
I JERK OFF TO ARCTOPUS
interesting how half of the countries in that picture aren't Arab! (Turkey, Iran, and everything eastward)
mindspell don't you think that would be a horrendous catastrophe? it would pretty much be open war between settling Palestinians and entrenched Israelis, and the IDF (and PA forces) would be playing peacekeeper, continuing the occupation and...
also, most of the best places in Gaza have been taken by Israelis. Gaza is the most densely populated area on earth and the Palestinians are the ones in the shitty apartment buildings. open the strip to settlement and you wouldn't see much equalization happen.
mindspell don't you think that would be a horrendous catastrophe? it would pretty much be open war between settling Palestinians and entrenched Israelis, and the IDF (and PA forces) would be playing peacekeeper, continuing the occupation and...
also, most of the best places in Gaza have been taken by Israelis. Gaza is the most densely populated area on earth and the Palestinians are the ones in the shitty apartment buildings. open the strip to settlement and you wouldn't see much equalization happen.
mindspell
vvv Jake's ass vvv
I know it is unfeasable, but it is still what I would like more to see. Shuffling people around, whether it is Palestinians or Israelis is not the solution (I don't know if there is one apart from wiping out Israelis from that region). I don't know about open war as long as IDF and PA forces would unite in keeping some sort of order however unlikely that is to happen. Civilians can only do so much.
mindspell
vvv Jake's ass vvv
And concerning the good settlements, I believe there would be a bunch available as many Israelis wouldn't want to live next to palestinians.
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