Songwriters - what's your standard procedure?

[Fragle]

i wonder how you guys approach songwriting?

right now i tend to write some riffs on my guitar, unplugged, and tab them out in guitar pro, building it from there....programming a basic drumline, adding layers etc. once i got a basic song complete i'll meet with the other guys and we'll change parts around, add new ones etc, and lastly make the tab as detailed as possible. once that's done, we're starting to rehearse the song and learn how to play it as a band, maybe changing some stuff around to make it sound better in real world.

actually, that's the worst part about it: some stuff sounds great in guitar pro, but shit in real life, and vice versa. sometimes a part will also feel way different when you're in the rehearsal room or on stage, with everything cranked etc.

lately i've started to noodle around with some amp sims etc, recording a few ideas, splice them together, program a very basic drum beat in SSD just to give the drummer an idea of how i want the riff to sound, but without tweaking every single fill and cymbal hit like we usually do in guitar pro.
sounds a bit more natural this way, but it's also harder to change riffs on the fly like you can with guitar pro. you always have to relearn and record it if you want a variation.

i don't think i've ever sat in the rehearsal space with my drummer and just jamming out ideas (although i want to try that sometime).

so, how are you guys usually doing it?

also, i wonder if you just let it flow out and just write a bunch of songs until you have enough for an EP or full length, maybe scrapping the ones that don't quite fit with the rest. or do you put some thought into it, like "i need an intro, a fast opening song, a midtempo headbanger, follower by another fast one, some melodic stuff etc"....consciously thinking about the big picture basically.
i'm also curious if you write your stuff alone and show it to the other guys as it's (nearly) finished, or if it's a collaborative effort right from the very start?

 

[Jevil]

many years ago I used to write while watching tv with a guitar in my hands and a tape recorder to record ideas, riffs...

Now instead of a cassette recorder i use my mobile phone for emergency inspiration.

But 90% of the times I sit in front of the PC with a blank cubase template and build the song riff by riff, beat by beat and layer by layer.

 

[metalfanat1c]

you write your stuff alone and show it to the other guys as it's (nearly) finished

This. It works best for me.


I tend to jam through amp sims for a while until something cool comes out then go from there.

 

[abigor731]

i do it pretty much exactly like you fragle,
its hard to decide wether to do it in a DAW or in GP,
i usually do both,
most of the time GP first cause if i recieve a tab from another band member i complete it first before recording a test version
if i start a song myself i use the DAW a little more frequently

i would go to a rehearsal to present the song to the band without a recording, but not without a GP
i am super anal about this, even if tiny changes are made, they must be changed in the GP tab and then sent to all the bandmembers, also the singer must put some sort of percussion sound everytime he sings a syllable

it also depends on the genre, i used to play in a tech metal band, and GP is much better for that kind of thing than using a DAW
now i play in a black metal band, and there is lots of stuff that can't be captured with GP (like synths, the slow attack/sfx stuff)

and its rarely the case that the GP sounds good and the real song sounds shit, its the other way round 95% of the time, actually in my band we usually say, if the GP already sounds good, then the real song can only sound better

 

[Behind]

I don't tell people what they have/want to do. So that's why I center the composition in my instrument.

The songs born in so many different ways:

-one guitar riff, then jamming with the band
-various guitar riffs, then jamming with the band
-a cool drum fill, develope some cool bass lines from there and jam

So the single-person that writes everything just doesn't work for me. The thing needs freedom and that's where the magic in music comes: when improvising lines and discovering new ways to develope the songs.

Hope it helps

 

[drew_drummer]

It really depends. A lot of the time, I'll write the barebones of a track on all instruments. Then we take it into the rehearsal room and re-write it from the ground-up. Other times, we'll jam and something will come out of it. Kinda just follow the mood of the initial riff.

Most of the time I write on my own though. Just more comfortable that way.

 

[aytchster]

I prefer writing in solitary as well, I can't seem to get all my creative juices running when there's a group of people around me. I can't control/limit myself to HAVE to create some music during that specific time when I meet the band...I can't guarantee that and it's usually epic fail attempts hehe.

I like to piece full songs together on my own, intro - verse - bridge - chorus - etc, etc...and also like to put the rest of the instruments in context where I sort of have something in mind but the other guys are free to do/suggest different things.

Usually this happens after watching a live or making-of DVD from my stash...that stuff gets me so inspired I actually get to points where I want to eat my guitar haha.

Hadi

 

[Torniojaws]

I pick up the guitar and jam until I come up with something I like. Then I record it (fx loop send into interface and daw, with impulse on it). Then I program some basic drums for the riff, and then use the drum as a base for the next riff. Then I record more riffs and create some additional basic drum lines, until I have 10-15 riffs. Then I start to write synth parts for each, usually 1-3 different ones playing together.

At this point, the picture starts to take shape and I start to sculpt the drum lines to fit the riffs and feel I want. Once all are ready, I move all parts somewhere to the end of the project and start to select which part sounds like the chorus, which opens the song etc. Then I just copypaste complete parts and make the basic structure for the song. Then I listen to it and adjust parts as needed. When it's just like I want it, I compose the bass parts to it. At this point, the song is pretty much ready, and I make an mp3 (and mix template, if it's the first song for the particular album).

I keep listening to it until the end of the album project, and make notes on what to improve. When all songs are ready like this, I make all the changes I made notes about. All in all, it takes about 4 months to have an album ready for recording. Mostly because I usually don't write songs so often. It's normally one finished song per sitting.

Yeah.

 

[Mago]

I do it in a few ways:

-) Just make a basic drumbeat, loop it and play along (plugged or unplugged)
-) haveing one riff written in GuitarPro5, leave it for some time then come back and suddenly make a whole song out of it (if I'm lucky^^)
-) having a riff, record it, record stuff that fits and see if something usefull comes out, arrange the parts (DAW or GuitarPro)
-) Seldom I have nearly a whole song in mind, just hit record and do it

I usually don't write in the rehearsalroom (bass and drum guys aren't writing much, they take the guitarstracks/guidetracks and modifiy them).
Most of the times when I have a full song or if I'm not sure about specific parts I send it to the other guitarplayer (mp3 or guitarprofile, we both know how it will sound "fo real") and show it to my GF (singer in the band) to ask for opinions/adjustments
Sometimes if I feel during rehearsals that something doesnt feel right I change it, but most of the times I get it also right for live application

I stopped writing ONLY in guitar pro 5 (even witouth having the guitar in hands), because I never like what came out (very mechanical, without riffs that have a feel)

 

[kvoid]

Great thread!

Ever since I've been writing on my own I've been having massive trouble writing anything resembling a song. I will usually write a very cool riff or two and leave it there. I don't ever finish shit. And when I have three or four riffs it goes into riff salad and I have no clear verse or chorus. That said I play (true) Black Metal and old school heavy and I have the same problems with both, with BM it's not so much of an issue as the structure can vary wildly but with the heavy metal stuff it's a pain. I read some ideas here that I may try, thanks.

 

[GeertSamuel]

I have the method of 5 G's...

1. Get drunk
2. Get a puppy and kill it
3. Get sober and realize you killed an innocent puppy
4. Get more drunk because of the puppy
5. Get a guitar and rip shit up



Anyhow...mostly it works this way, me and Nanne (guitar player from my band) normally have a bunch of riffs, beats or maybe even effects in our head or in the computer as a rough sketch. When we feel like it we sit together in front of the computer and exchange ideas. Mostly a song starts with just 1 idea and after that expanding around it. The idea can be variable from 1 bar to maybe 1 or 2 minutes of music. As we both can exchange the ideas it's either me programming drums, him playing guitar, or the other way around. To keep things fresh we have a specific method, here is an example: If he comes up with a cool guitar part, he can tell me which directions the drums need to go to, but instead we first give the other person's perspective (in this example me) a chance before telling what he had in mind when writing this part. This way everything can go into a different direction that might be better, or not. From that way we just keep on working, and mostly we have about 10/15 riffs/beats/ideas that we can work on, some of those will make it, some maybe not.

Here are 2 examples of ideas/sketches which we bring to the table first, like I mentioned, we have about 10/15 of these things recorded and just start working on them when we feel like it, or throw it away if we don't feel it. We didn't feel like getting to this yet since we we're to busy and just didn't have the mindset.

Anyhow here are the files, don't judge the quality, since this al demo/demo/demo style, this is rougher than rough!!:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/748885/Bereaver.mp3
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/748885/vikingparty.mp3

Anyhow, that's my/our way of working, if I write myself it will only be me but also working out of 1 idea.

 

[TravisW]

I rarely sit down with a blank slate and the sole purpose of writing anything, I wait until I have the idea and then sit down to record it. I start with a riff, generally playing through a Korg PXR4 into the computer. I set a general tempo, then play the riff and immediately follow it with two other riffs while the vibe of the first one is fresh in my mind. If I'm out of immediate ideas, I save the session and do something else. I let the initial ideas stew for a while, then come back to the project when I have a better idea of where I want it to go. From there, I generally re-track whatever parts I like the best and refine whatever else that I don't like. At this point, I have established my theme riff, verse riff, prechorus, and chorus (if that's the type of structure that I'm going for). From there, I add in any middle sections or solo sections that I want, then assemble the whole thing as a song. If that all seems to be working, then I track a scratch bass guitar track.

From there, I take it to the band, with nothing more than a click and a bit of a verbal description of what I was thinking about for drums. When we begin to rehearse the song, we generally cut some parts out and the rhythm time might change fairly significantly. I've found that what I think might be a good drum part might not be as good as what the drummer has in mind, groove-wise. So, the final arrangement basically happens in the rehearsal room. From there, I do a rough recording of a rehearsal, listen back, and we make any changes that seem to make sense.

 

[HvO]

yeah, great thread!

i can´t tell about my songwriting phase, because this year is my songwriting year of horror!


Biggest problem: My requirements are higher than my songwriting-skills...

 

[Jind]

I've mentioned this before in another thread similar to this one that most of my music starts in my head and with me huming a few bars into my mobile phone's recording app. All my good ideas happen when I'm far from my instruments and DAW so I have gotten good at having my phone with me and I'll either sing a lyric, a melody, or hum a riff into the recorder for later work.

Later I take all my ideas and either work on them on the guitar or the keyboard depending on what type of idea it is. Many times I'll lay down a quick beat loop that will work with the timing of my idea and work it out over that for starters.

If I'm at my system trying to come up with ideas I generally use Sonoma Wire Works Riffworks since it's so simple to create layered music with and then export the results into my DAW for further work. I also bring my laptop with Riffworks, my Stealthplug, and my guitar when I travel in case my muse hits me at night in the hotel room. I need to get an iPhone so I can just use apps for that with my guitar - it would be a lot less to lug around on travel.

 

[Fragle]

so true. i scrap ideas ALL THE FUCKING TIME. not because they are bad or even mediocre, but because i'm always second guessing myself. it's a pita. especially if i noodle around in the rehearsal space, playing one of those scrapped riffs, and my bandmates are like FUCK, we gotta use that....

that's actually the reason why i sometimes have a hard time to come up with stuff that fits with other parts. sometimes i have cool idea, but i'm just like "nah, can't do that" even if it's perfectly fine.
self criticism is my worst enemy i guess.

 

[Mago]

so true. i scrap ideas ALL THE FUCKING TIME. not because they are bad or even mediocre, but because i'm always second guessing myself. it's a pita. especially if i noodle around in the rehearsal space, playing one of those scrapped riffs, and my bandmates are like FUCK, we gotta use that....

that's actually the reason why i sometimes have a hard time to come up with stuff that fits with other parts. sometimes i have cool idea, but i'm just like "nah, can't do that" even if it's perfectly fine.
self criticism is my worst enemy i guess.

Yeah but it's better to reject ideas you aren't into 100% rather than go on with some riff because other guys feel like it "has" to be in some song, or use a whole song you don't feel is as good as it could be.
I had a song once that started out great, but never got to finish it the way I wanted it to be. It made it to the point were it could be called a "song" and the others were ok with it, but it didn't feel right for me.
Two years later it suddenly hit me and I finished it off in no time, and I still like it...creativity is a strange thing, and as long as your perfectionism&self critism isnt destructive and drives you into desperation its a great tool



Also about half of the time I have an idea, it starts without me beeing even near an instrument, as Jind allready said...humming into the phone helps in that case for me too

 

[Paulie!]

I have a split between writing riffs and tabbing them and writing in GP and learning it.....

Biggest problem: My requirements are higher than my songwriting-skills...

I have this problem in reverse... I've written shit in GP and then realized... I can't play that, why the fuck did I write it and damn it sounds good.. (Following this usually comes with thoughts of finding a lead guitarist whose much better than I.. haha)

-P

 

[HandsOfDespair]

Personally, I'll write the whole song just on my guitar before even starting to compose drums. When I can play the first riff until the last one without interruption, then I can say I have the basic song, and then I write drums/bass/keys. I fucking hate writing songs in guitar pro (in fact I prefer drum editing, by far), but for my new songs I dont have the choice to do so because I'll have to send the the tabs to my bassist and my guitarist so they can learn the songs.

 

[TravisW]

I have an immense riff collection. Even if I don't have an immediate use for something, I always save some version of it for later reference. A lot of times, I'll have something cool but not appropriate for the band.

 

[Calippo Tecks]

I try different things:
I improvise on my Roland Juno G(record on it) or with midi keyboard (vst's) and record it in cubase.
The same goes for guitar riffs, try to improvise and record everything.
That's about 10% of everything I do.
The other 90% I just start writing in Guitar Pro 4 (I don't like RSE) without having a guitar in my hands and it works perfect for me.

*EDIT*
Atleast that's what I do when writing metal songs, for orchestral composing I just use a shitload of templates in cubase with vst plugins and write my midi tracks in cubase or record them with midi keyboard and time correct the midi files manually
*/EDIT*