Songwriting

[YaYo]

Im currently goin thru one of my stages where i begin writing a new song every day. and never finish most of the damn things.... and i realise there are probably many songwriters on this board, so im curious to know how other ppl go about writing songs???

personally i generally stumble across a cool riff while im playing random shit on the guitar.. and then over the next 3 or 4 days ill gradually discover more and more riffs that fit well with the first one.. and then ill start organising the riffs into a song structure of some sort, at which point i usually find that i need another 1 or 2 riffs to fill in certain sections of the song.. finally i begin the recording process where i record drums first (written in midi, using Cubase to sample in real drum sounds), then guitars, then bass.. (I cant sing so I dont get to record vocals!!)... the recording process generally takes about a week.. and then another week after that i spend listening to what ive done and making minor adjustments to EQ and similar.

now, my method has some big flaws in it. Mainly that because i only write with myself i dont get other influences in my songs.. and because im no drummer or bassist those end up only adequate.. and most of my riffs also tend to mainly revolve around a single guitar (since i can only play one guitar at once!)... and this is why im asking for other ppls methods, what's effective? what isnt? and so on..

 

[Soul Forlorn]

I too write and record only by myself and have the disadvantage of having to come up with all the material for all the instruments by myself and not being able to be influenced by other band members' riffs and/or ideas. I consider myself mainly a guitarist, though for quite a few years I played strictly bass, so I don't have any problem coming up with bass lines that I'm satisfied with. As far as drums, synths, and vocals I basically try to listen and analyze the bands that influence me. Sometimes I purposely turn a deaf ear to the guitars and try to listen to only the particular instrument that I'm trying to learn from. I'll listen mainly to phrasing, how things are harmonized, and how they relate and fit in with all the other instruments as a whole. Eventually, you obtain a greater understanding of how all the instruments relate to each other and how each one is special in the mix. Sometimes the music calls for it, but I try to keep each instrument doing something a little different from all the other instrument. For example, I find it utterly boring when the bass follows the guitar for an entire song. Sometimes I'll have an idea for an instrument and then I'll do a complete 180 degree turn on what I was originally thinking. Sometimes the results are really refreshing and you surprise yourself.

Generally, when I write a song, I first determine a general idea or a mood for the song, such as this will be an instrumental, or all acoustic, or really heavy, or really depressing, etc. Then over the course of a few days I'll just sit down and do some improvising and general practicing. Every so often, I'll come up with a cool riff or a good idea, and then I'll record it so I don't forget it. Once I get a few ideas and riffs going, then I'll start recording the actual song. Personally, I find that if I have just a few riffs/ideas it's really easy to come up with all the rest. That's just me though, others need the whole blueprint right in front of them. Often I'll record one riff, and for the material that will follow that riff I almost have too many ideas. The song would just keep going on forever if I didn't move on to something a little different

Most of my songs are fairly long, so it takes anywhere from 1-4 weeks to record it all. First, I get the guitar part in my head and make a basic drum part to fit it. Then I record the guitar part(I'm basically using the basic drum part as a metronome here). I'll continue doing that until all the main guitar parts are done. Then I'll do all the additional guitar parts (solos, harmony parts, etc.) Then I'll redo the drums into how I want them to ultimately be. Then I'll record the bass and then the vocals last. Then, I like to take a few days to listen to it, make any changes, fix any mistakes, and make any additions to it. Then I'll mix and master it, which usually only takes a day or two.

most of my riffs also tend to mainly revolve around a single guitar (since i can only play one guitar at once!

So at any given point in your songs there's only one guitar part?
I don't know much about Cubase but why can't you just do extensive overdubbing. That's what I do. I use Cakewalk and sometimes I'll have as many as 4 guitars playing at once, each with their own unique part. That's the beauty of computers and software today. With enough imagination and creativity a person on his/her own can create entire arrangements fairly inexpensively and with fairly good quality.

 

[Mikael is God]

well i didnt bother reading all that because its past 2 am..
this is what i do.. i have a demo of sonic foundry acid guitar pro... its a 8 track recorder... i can put a drum loop... and up to 7 guitar harmonies... recorded.... its very simple to use.... i usually make 3 part harmonies since my band has 3 guitars... and i do the vocals as well.... ....

 

[YaYo]

the latest acoustic instrumental song im writing has 6 guitars at one point.. but my point is that in the writing process theres generally 1 main guitar riff.. whereas id like to achieve those 2 guitar riffs. where if u take away either of the guitars your left with something that sounds nothing like the final sound of both. (hm, was that sentence understandable?).. i think writing music with another guitarist would allow this. but i have no guitarist friends who are into similar music (such as opeth!).. whenever i write with another guitarist its always jazz or something..

 

[Soul Forlorn]

hmmm, ok, I know exactly what you mean. The only thing I can tell you is to just listen real hard to your influences. Pay critical attention to each part and how they relate to one another yet how they stand apart on their own. Basically, just learn from the masters and allow yourself to be influenced.

 

[YaYo]

yeh thats a good point, thanx... thats kinda what ive been trying to do lately.

the other thing im interested in is drum samples. (of individual drum hits. coz my current set sounds really 80s.. )... and more importantly i often have problems getting a good recording sound for distorted rhythm guitar..
i use an Ibanez Jem 777 running thru a Boss MetalZone.. and straight into the computer, coz i dont own a good amp, or a mic... and with a lot fo EQing i can get it sounding reasonable. but not good. never heavy or powerful. and advice for that would be greatly appreciated since distorted guitar sounds are rather important in metal songs!!!

oh and i actually record using CoolEdit Pro... Cubase i just use for its VST instrument stuff.

 

[Soul Forlorn]

I don't know much about samples. I use a drum machine programmed via midi. I've found that using a drum machine in conjunction with a good effects unit works fairly well. Via midi, one can program velocity changes and volumes for each part of the drum kit. With a good machine, good effects, and good programming the average listener probably wouldn't care or even notice it was a drum machine. As far as guitar goes, it kind of depends on your budget. Sometimes I mic my amp, but most often I use a Line 6 Pod, sometimes in conjunction with a metalzone pedal (and a shitload of other rack units). The Pod is a direct recording device that emulates guitar amps. It takes a lot of trial and error, but it can produce a really good tone all by itself. And once you find that tone, it's just plug and play. No messing with mics, mic-pre's, levels, room acoustics, and all that.
The Johnson J-station is similar, and cheaper. I've never used one but I've read some pretty good reviews. I know exactly what it sounds like to run a metalzone straight into the pc, and believe me having an amp emulator after the pedal makes a WORLD of difference. You can make it sound just like running the metalzone into your amp. You'll probably never, in a home studio, make your guitar sound as heavy or powerful as say, Opeth. Some things that help are doubletracking, dynamics processing, and experimenting with panning.

 

[warsofwinter]

I have no methods , I just write a riff , I won't be doing anything . I can;t try to write a riff . i just sit down with my guitar and play that riff , If it doesn;t sound right I just experiment with it until it sounds better .

 

[scarr3d]

whoa! so you're saying i could just go from:

guitar ---> metalzone (optional) ---> Line6 POD ---> sound card?

then modify the tone, etc with say, SoundForge?

crazy.

i HATE this shitty Marshall Valvestate i bought for home recording/practice. i've got my stack in the practice space.



i'm trying to get a better sound. my current setup is:

Gibson SG w/EMG's ---> Crybaby ---> Flanger ---> MetalZone ---> Valvestate amp ---> sound card.

then i record riffs and what not into SoundForge. can anyone suggest a good metronome/drum machine?

i guess my main question is, can i ditch this peice of shite marshall practice amp and just go from guitar to a Line6 POD into my sound card?

oh yeah...my stack's head is a JCM 800 100W, which i'm trying to sell so i can get the 900 w/reverb. anyone interested?

thanks in advance for any input.

-j

 

[Soul Forlorn]

Scarr3d, hell yeah man, just go guitar>metalzone>pod>soundcard

It can't get any easier than that. I prefer to use a compression unit and an effects unit after the pod too, but they're not absolutely necessary. You actually can get a pretty good tone just with the pod, nothing else. Now take in mind that you're going to have to experiment like crazy with the pod and the metalzone to get a sound you like. Don't expect to be blown away 5 seconds after taking the pod out of the box. The pod is a great piece of equipment, you literally can get thousands of different tones out of it. Just like any other piece of equipment, though, depending on what settings you use it can sound like total shit or freakin wonderful. Most of the time I go guitar>pod>ART compressor>Lexicon effects unit>soundcard. I also use Sound Forge and Cool Edit 2000 in the recording process but I rarely use those to edit the actual sound of the guitar. Mainly I use them for mastering the whole project. By the way, Cool Edit Pro/2000 will wipe that annoying hum and hiss the metalzone makes right out of your project without changing your tone at all.

I can't say I've heard a valvestate directly into the soundcard, but I have heard other amps with direct recording outputs and they usually sound like shit. I've never cared much for the sound of a valvestate anyway.

My advice is to buy a pod from somewhere with one of those 30 or 45 day money back guarantees if you don't like it. Play with it for a few weeks, if you don't like it, take it back. Trust me though, play with it enough and you'll find what you're looking for.

As far as drum machines go, I use a Boss DR-5. The Boss DR-770 is a good one too. I've heard some good things about the Zoom 234. The Alesis SR-16 isn't bad, but pretty basic. My advice is buy as much of one as you can afford. I started out with a cheap model and ended up getting a more expensive unit later on 'cause the cheapie didn't have enough features.

 

[YaYo]

Sounds like a good setup.. but goddam i wish i had money.

Yeh i use CoolEdit to remove hiss and hum and such and its great. and find it really good for all effects (considering a MetalZone is the only effect i actually own). So using just those i can get fairly good acoustic sounds, and even some alright sounds for distorted solos. But like ive said distorted rhythm just doesnt work.

i also have CakeWalk AmpSim which tries to simulate certain amp sounds, and does so fairly convincingly.. just not made for metal. more for older amp sounds.

thanx for all that info SoulForlorn and others. anyone with any other ideas/software/products please tell me!!

 

[Orchid]

Originally posted by YaYoGakk
I also have CakeWalk AmpSim which tries to simulate certain amp sounds, and does so fairly convincingly.. just not made for metal. more for older amp sounds.

That vintage sound could be interesting, you could experiment with that as well. Not all metal guitar sounds have to be that sort of harsh and sharp.. some people prefer the old shitty analog recording equipment because of the way they compress the sound, and vintage drumsets are pretty valued.

anyone with any other ideas/software/products please tell me!!

To get a rich, full sound, you could record the same riff twice, for example (depends on the riff). We used it for the acoustic parts of Thales demo songs; ie. record the same riff twice, pan the other take 100% left, the other 100% right. In the older songs (Solace, Desolation) we recorded one take on a classical guitar and another on clean electronics.

Some years back when I was just playing around with one of my earlier songs and couldn't get a distinct sound for one of my riffs (using E and A strings), I recorded both strings separately, and voilá!

Experimenting with echos and delays can open some new viewpoints too. Pan a guitar 100% left and the echos 100% right. An interesting result.

 

[Russell]

Back 2 the origonal topic of the post, I always start off writing chords 1st (most of the stuff I write isn't metal - few riffs). I then play around untilll i get good guitar parts, definitely NOT the best way 2 do it!

 

[Mikael is God]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
what the fuck are you thinking?!@??!?! dont go directly into the computer!!! thats stupid!!! use your fuckin amp it doesnt matter if you have a small amp you go through the amp and mic it up and it sounds 200 times better..... plugging straight in is horrible sounding

 

[scarr3d]

SoulForlorn...thanks a lot for the advice. i might even be able to trade my valvestate straight across for a POD. hehe.

couple more questions though. i just tried to go from guitar to metalzone straight into the soundcard and i got no sound. i'm guessing the POD is meant for that kind of setup (is it a pre-amp or something) and what i've just tried doesn't. should i be able to get sound out of my computer speakers with just my guitar going into metalzone then sound card?

also, what advantages does CoolEdit have over SoundForge....for guitar. how can you modify your guitars tone with the software, on the fly, with these either CoolEdit or SoundForge.

thanks again for the tips.

 

[Soul Forlorn]

Miking an amp can sound better. But you better have a good mic, a good mic pre-amp, and good room acoustics. You also better know what you're doing in terms of mic positioning. There is a lot of equipment nowadays made for direct recording, such as the Line 6 pod, that will give you a good tone without all the hassle of miking an amp. Anyone who says any different obviously doesn't have a very open mind or has little experience concerning these matters. I'm definitely not against miking an amp, it's just that someone doing home studio recording has to look at the options available. You'd be surprised how often even professional artists are using direct recording.

 

[scarr3d]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO what the fuck are you thinking?!@??!?! dont go directly into the computer!!! thats stupid!!! use your fuckin amp it doesnt matter if you have a small amp you go through the amp and mic it up and it sounds 200 times better..... plugging straight in is horrible sounding

dude. first off. why are you screaming at me? i'm obviously a novice at digital recording looking for HELP. that does not, but thanks for trying.

i think you missed the point. i'm not going for volume, that's what the marshall stack is for. i'm just trying to get a decent sound at home and while recording riffs into SoundForge. the valvestate is just not cutting it...the tone makes me nauseous when i go play through the JCM 800.

 

[Soul Forlorn]

couple more questions though. i just tried to go from guitar to metalzone straight into the soundcard and i got no sound. i'm guessing the POD is meant for that kind of setup (is it a pre-amp or something) and what i've just tried doesn't. should i be able to get sound out of my computer speakers with just my guitar going into metalzone then sound card?

Hmmm, I just tried it and it works fine for my computer. Of course it sounds like total shit... Could just be that you don't have whatever input you're going into on your soundcard armed for recording or maybe the volume on the metalzone isn't up far enough. If these aren't the cause, check the volume on your guitar or are your monitor speakers on? Probably just something isn't set right on your soundcard. And yes, the pod is kind of like a pre-amp(actually a shitload of different pre-amps) as well as a cabinet emulator.

also, what advantages does CoolEdit have over SoundForge....for guitar. how can you modify your guitars tone with the software, on the fly, with these either CoolEdit or SoundForge.

Sound Forge and Cool Edit are fairly similar. I just prefer Cool Edit. I like the way it is set up better and it seems more user-friendly. As far as modifying the guitar tone they both have the standard graphic eq's, paramatric eq's, dynamics processing, and effects such as chorus, reverb, delay, etc. You can download a trial version of Cool Edit at www.syntrillium.com and then you can see for yourself.

 

[scarr3d]

man i feel like an ass. cable wasn't plugged all the way into my wah. hehe. it sounds a hell of a lot better than my practice amp, which i'm kickin to the curb when i pick up my POD next Friday. ordered one today.

thanks again for the help.

 

[YaYo]

OK. lots of info..
its my birthday on saturday and i have a couple hundred dollars so im gonna buy something.

im thinking of buying a mic.. since that allows the versatility of mic'ing other instruments and so on. so now any advice on mics would be awesome!
a Line 6 Pod seems limiting. and since eventually (if all goes well) ill be recording using mics i may as well start now.

i assume ill be buying an instrument mic of some sort? is there anything i need to look out for? is this difference between buying a 2nd hand mic for $100 and buying a mic for $300 that noticeable (considering im no mic expert and wont have the best room acoustics or so on). ?


and on the songwriting front ive decided to take a weird approach and see what happens. im gonna write a small story (not for lyrics, purely to base the song around), mainly focusing on chages in emotions and so on... and then convert that into a song.. should be interesting!!