Still having drum editing/Overhead issues

[Downwards]

Hey gang. I'm newer to recording this way(triggered drums, replaced, real overheads). I've been trying to edit this one song for way longer than it should be taking me, and I'm getting fustrated cuz it seems like I can't get it right. I tried slip editing with Reaper, but as I said before, a lot of the cymbal transients got somewhat chopped, cuz the cymbals are off from drums. And for some reason, it's hard for me to see the grid/time changes/timeline, in Reaper(it's easier for me to tell where things are supposed to be in Pro Tools). But since the drum shells were replaced, I just edited those by hand in PT, but I can't do that for the overheads/hihat tracks. I did make a midi track, and programed in the cymbals with DFH, cuz it was certainly easier and faster, but I don't really want to do that cuz then they'll be fake cymbals, and if I did that, whats the point of recording? I might as well program everything in.

So yeah, in short, I don't know if it's me, or if the drummer just played so out of whack, that it would be to hard to fix, or what? Anyone else have this trouble, or any suggestions/thoughts, on this? I really don't know what to do.

Also, anyone know of any good condensors for overheads that would be relatively easy on the wallet? Right now, I'm using a pair of MXL 991's, into the Digi002, but I don't know, adding some higher frequencies(8-9Khz), they get a little shrill. Or maybe an EQ that would be better for overheads? Thanx in advance.

 

[BLUElightCory]

Also, anyone know of any good condensors for overheads that would be relatively easy on the wallet? Right now, I'm using a pair of MXL 991's, into the Digi002, but I don't know, adding some higher frequencies(8-9Khz), they get a little shrill. Or maybe an EQ that would be better for overheads? Thanx in advance.

Don't add highs; subtract lows instead. Your mixes and ears will thank you.

 

[Trevoire520]

since the drum shells were replaced, I just edited those by hand in PT

You should be editing all the drums as a group, not editing shells and cymbals separately.

 

[JamesNorman]

Don't add highs; subtract lows instead. Your mixes and ears will thank you.

You should be editing all the drums as a group, not editing shells and cymbals separately.

Yep try subtractive EQ and try to stay away from boosting EQ in general. Also make sure all your edits grouped so you keep phase in the overheads and this will avoid flams and natural sounding drums.

 

[Fragle]

i have a related question...

so let's say there's a double kick part that's....not exactly well played how would you go about editing it?
i tried the whole slip editing with everything grouped thing, but it chopped up the cymbals really bad, also resulting in some double cymbal hits etc, all kinds of unwanted stuff.

right now i'm slip editing everything at once for most sections (which works very well), and switch over to whole kit minus the kick for the double bass parts, editing the kick seperately.
however, i inevitably end up with some flams where the overheads and room mics aren't aligned with the kick (since they aren't edited together with the kick).
is there any workaround? or do you just have to deal with the flams, rigorously high passing the overheads so they're as inaudible as possible, and hope that it won't be audible once the whole band is playing?
i guess you want to set up the overheads so that the kick is as quiet as possible to begin with, but well...shit's already tracked, there's no way back.

 

[Dalinkwent48@aim.com]

i have a related question...

so let's say there's a double kick part that's....not exactly well played how would you go about editing it?
i tried the whole slip editing with everything grouped thing, but it chopped up the cymbals really bad, also resulting in some double cymbal hits etc, all kinds of unwanted stuff.

right now i'm slip editing everything at once for most sections (which works very well), and switch over to whole kit minus the kick for the double bass parts, editing the kick seperately.
however, i inevitably end up with some flams where the overheads and room mics aren't aligned with the kick (since they aren't edited together with the kick).
is there any workaround? or do you just have to deal with the flams, rigorously high passing the overheads so they're as inaudible as possible, and hope that it won't be audible once the whole band is playing?
i guess you want to set up the overheads so that the kick is as quiet as possible to begin with, but well...shit's already tracked, there's no way back.

If you didn't already...check out adams video, hes incredibly detailed in explaining what to do in that vid.

 

[nwright]

if you slip edit right, I don't see how you get a bunch of double cymbal hits.

I usually just EQ the overheads to the point where the flam hits are inaudible (if there are any). What I've been doing lately is once everything is edited, I group the cymbals/overheads and insert an EQ first, an expander to further distance the cymbals from the kit, and then a limiter to cut some peaks. It has worked really well for me so far.

 

[Lowberg]

I have a similar problem while slip editing drums. Certain cymbols don't decay well on fast parts that were edited. I keep getting a glitchy type of decay

 

[Fragle]

if you slip edit right, I don't see how you get a bunch of double cymbal hits.

I usually just EQ the overheads to the point where the flam hits are inaudible (if there are any). What I've been doing lately is once everything is edited, I group the cymbals/overheads and insert an EQ first, an expander to further distance the cymbals from the kit, and then a limiter to cut some peaks. It has worked really well for me so far.

let's say the drummer wanted to play 8th note triplets @ 240bpm on the kicks, and one is very early, with the next one being late. now suppose he's playing some stuff on the ride that was spot on. if i edit the kicks to be in time, the ride get's all messed up.

 

[nwright]

I edit the kick seperate and make sure there is no flamming on the snare/toms or cymbals and then fix the kick. Even with a mostly natural drum tone, I'd *think* the overheads would be hi passed (I do, anyway). The late hit would probably get buried, but the early one may be audible. If you couldn't get it fixed simply through editing, I'd take a snippet of the same section and copy/paste into the early hit section. You could potentially even slip edit just those milliseconds of the early hits attack to make it inaudible. Otherwise, hi passing the cymbals/OH's, then using an expander to gain some volume in just the cymbals might help. It works for me, and I'm definitely no where near many on the forum in terms of skill level. Maybe I'm a better editor than mixer, but I've not had problems with flamming or early hits being audible yet, and I'm a noon when it comes to slip editing (using it for the first time on my current band project).

 

[JeffTD]

so let's say there's a double kick part that's....not exactly well played how would you go about editing it?

Edit the hands above ALL else. Honestly, on steady double kick stuff, this is how I do it (as lazy as it sounds, it gives the same result as editing the kick separately):

1. Edit the hands to grid.
2. Use Trigger or DrumTracker to convert to midi
3. Quantize midi track, fill in any blanks if necessary
4. Use that as your kick track.

 

[Downwards]

Yep try subtractive EQ and try to stay away from boosting EQ in general. Also make sure all your edits grouped so you keep phase in the overheads and this will avoid flams and natural sounding drums.

Ok. I originally did edit the drums/cymbals as a group.

I have a similar problem while slip editing drums. Certain cymbols don't decay well on fast parts that were edited. I keep getting a glitchy type of decay

let's say the drummer wanted to play 8th note triplets @ 240bpm on the kicks, and one is very early, with the next one being late. now suppose he's playing some stuff on the ride that was spot on. if i edit the kicks to be in time, the ride get's all messed up.

See, these are the problems I'm having as well. Cymbals don't line up with the drums that they're supposed to. So when edited as a group, cymbals get all screwed up. So how exactly are you supposed to edit everything to be in time, as a group, when different parts(i.e. drums and cymbals) don't line up, without doing it seperatly?

 

[Fragle]

well, with the current project i'm editing right now i did just that....edit double kicks seperately, get rid of as much kick bleed as possible, and crush the overheads with severe highpassing, further EQ, and limiting. works for the most part, but on the *really* edited sections there are some flams audible.
but then again, there's nothing else recorded yet, so i'll see how it turns out with the full band playing.

i was just wondering if there's another way to avoid this kinda stuff.

 

[Trevoire520]

i was just wondering if there's another way to avoid this kinda stuff.

Only way I can think of is to totally kill the kick sound when recording, either using a blanket in the drum or just using a kick pad from an electric kick. Chances are it's gonna be sample replaced anyway so it's probably the easiest way to go about it.