Symphony X - Iconoclast

[Bear]

After the Odyssey (which was great) I very much stopped caring about them. I may give this one a listen tho.

In my opinion Iconoclast is way better than The Odyssey and a bit better than Paradise Lost, maybe it was just I needed some new Symphony X but Romeo completely owns!!!

Bear

 

[batmura]

if you bought say the Japanese version and ONLY bought the Japanese version, yes, you are hurting the band. It'd be better if you just illegally downloaded it in that case because you're not actually throwing out money

Thanks for the laugh. See ya around.

 

[Justin G]

Thanks for the laugh. See ya around.

I don't get that logic either. How would buying a band's album - regardless of which market it came from - harm a band? It's still a sale.

 

[Metaldrumz]

I don't get that logic either. How would buying a band's album - regardless of which market it came from - harm a band? It's still a sale.

Exactly.

I guess the folks in Japan shouldn't bother buying the Japanese version of any release.....after all its just harming the band. *shakes head*

Funny because whenever I show bands my collection of CD's from all the territories they were released I am always met with positive response, and support. Not quite the reaction I'd expect if I was "harming bands".

It was actually my massive MYSTIC PROPHECY collection of CD's from multiple territories that spawned a really cool friendship between me and the singer.

IMO what is the fucking difference whether a Japanese fan buys a Japan release or an American buys the Japan release. Ok the argument is you didn't buy the North American, or European release or what have you and took away that particular sale ....but again it is still a SALE regardless.....how thats the same as illegally downloading it is beyond me.

I don't think if I was showing off a collection of illegally downloaded albums I'd get the same response from the bands.

Anyone on my facebook has had access to view just a small sample of some of the bands I collect such as JORN, FIREWIND, MYSTIC PROPHECY, DREAM EVIL, PAGAN'S MIND, ROB ROCK, and STEEL PANTHER.

Ironically just 2 days ago Bob Katsionis of FIREWIND reposted my picture of my collection on his wall with a nice compliment. In that collection was releases from all territories...go figure!

 

[AeonicSlumber]

I don't get that logic either. How would buying a band's album - regardless of which market it came from - harm a band? It's still a sale.

If you buy the CD from a retailer like Laser CD and such, it's obviously fine, because they ordered the CDs from the label so the label got paid for the CDs. If it's a license to a third party like Japan or Mexico, it's a different situation. In that situation, the Japanese or Mexican label is releasing the record intentionally for people in Japan or Mexico to buy it. Nuclear Blast doesn't really see a whole lot of the money from those sales, in most cases these licensing deals are stuck because the label doesn't have distribution networks in those territories and they figure they may as well make a small amount on sales anyways if they can since in licensing deals they don't have to spend any money on printing or marketing.

But in the territories where they DO spend money on printing and marketing (USA and Europe + UK), they make most of their money on CD sales on the sales THEY release. This in turn is good for the band because it means more tour support, more label push, etc. If you want to see the band play Japan and get dropped by their label over here and in Europe, yeah everyone can buy the Japanese version. But in my mind, you may as well have illegally downloaded it. Saying a sale is a sale is honestly a stupid argument. It's like saying a bootleg is justified because you're spending money on it. No, you're throwing money out and the money isn't really going to anyone in the band. Those Japan, Mexican, Australia (any territory that is licensed to by the label) are releases are released by Japanese, Mexican, and Australian labels mean for people in those territories to buy them. But Nuclear Blast sees almost none of those sales -- they see much more from the records THEY release.

And again, it boggles my mind how ignorant you all sound. Why do you think games and DVDs are region locked? For laughs? Because they think it's funny to piss people off? No, it's because whoever is releasing the DVD in the US doesn't see any of the money (or sees very little money) if someone in Denmark buys it, so they region lock their products so that they don't lose money.

 

[Comic Book Dude]

If a label has licensed the product out to a third party, they do receive compensation for that, correct? How can buying that product be the same as illegally downloading it instead? I would think bigger sales in those territories might eventually lead to direct distribution by the label itself, or at least higher license fees? Does this mean if I buy a cd that has been licensed by, say, Nightmare Records, that I'm screwing some band who doesn't have direct distribution in the US?

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Exactly.

I guess the folks in Japan shouldn't bother buying the Japanese version of any release.....after all its just harming the band. *shakes head*

Funny because whenever I show bands my collection of CD's from all the territories they were released I am always met with positive response, and support. Not quite the reaction I'd expect if I was "harming bands".

It was actually my massive MYSTIC PROPHECY collection of CD's from multiple territories that spawned a really cool friendship between me and the singer.

IMO what is the fucking difference whether a Japanese fan buys a Japan release or an American buys the Japan release. Ok the argument is you didn't buy the North American, or European release or what have you and took away that particular sale ....but again it is still a SALE regardless.....how thats the same as illegally downloading it is beyond me.

I don't think if I was showing off a collection of illegally downloaded albums I'd get the same response from the bands.

Anyone on my facebook has had access to view just a small sample of some of the bands I collect such as JORN, FIREWIND, MYSTIC PROPHECY, DREAM EVIL, PAGAN'S MIND, ROB ROCK, and STEEL PANTHER.

Ironically just 2 days ago Bob Katsionis of FIREWIND reposted my picture of my collection on his wall with a nice compliment. In that collection was releases from all territories...go figure!

Obviously the band isn't going to care. In fact, most bands these days even say "go download our album if you cannot afford it, as long as you listen to the music," they don't know/want to know the business behind CD sales, as it's not their job. This is also a terrible argument. Also I love how like 70% of the bands you listed don't tour much (if at all) and generally have low CD sales (like Steel Panther, which was a disaster for Universal - albeit a shame because they rule). Hmmm!!!

 

[Justin G]

If you buy the CD from a retailer like Laser CD and such, it's obviously fine, because they ordered the CDs from the label so the label got paid for the CDs. If it's a license to a third party like Japan or Mexico, it's a different situation. In that situation, the Japanese or Mexican label is releasing the record intentionally for people in Japan or Mexico to buy it. Nuclear Blast doesn't really see a whole lot of the money from those sales, in most cases these licensing deals are stuck because the label doesn't have distribution networks in those territories and they figure they may as well make a small amount on sales anyways if they can since in licensing deals they don't have to spend any money on printing or marketing.

But in the territories where they DO spend money on printing and marketing (USA and Europe + UK), they make most of their money on CD sales on the sales THEY release. This in turn is good for the band because it means more tour support, more label push, etc. If you want to see the band play Japan and get dropped by their label over here and in Europe, yeah everyone can buy the Japanese version. But in my mind, you may as well have illegally downloaded it. Saying a sale is a sale is honestly a stupid argument. It's like saying a bootleg is justified because you're spending money on it. No, you're throwing money out and the money isn't really going to anyone in the band. Those Japan, Mexican, Australia (any territory that is licensed to by the label) are releases are released by Japanese, Mexican, and Australian labels mean for people in those territories to buy them. But Nuclear Blast sees almost none of those sales -- they see much more from the records THEY release.

And again, it boggles my mind how ignorant you all sound. Why do you think games and DVDs are region locked? For laughs? Because they think it's funny to piss people off? No, it's because whoever is releasing the DVD in the US doesn't see any of the money (or sees very little money) if someone in Denmark buys it, so they region lock their products so that they don't lose money.

First of all, I asked an honest question. Saying it's a "stupid argument" and telling me I'm ignorant doesn't really accomplish anything, unless you're trying to solidify your reputation here as an asshole. If so, mission accomplished, but I have to say it tends to de-legitimize whatever points you're trying to make.

Second, if these regional labels (Scarecrow, Avalon, etc.) have a distribution license with Nuclear Blast, then Nuclear Blast is getting paid. If Nuclear Blast is getting paid, the bands are geting paid. They may not be getting paid as much as they would if we waited patiently for an album's evantual US release, but equating the purchase of an import disc to an illegal download makes no sense at all.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

If a label has licensed the product out to a third party, they do receive compensation for that, correct?

Very little. Because the third party is the one doing the printing, shipping, marketing and has to recoup those costs obviously. So the copyright owner (in this case NB) sees a very small % on the sales, but they do these licensing deals so that they can make a little something and not have to pay anything for it, not so that their bread and butter market buys their licensed products so they only make a small % on sales.

How can buying that product be the same as illegally downloading it instead? I would think bigger sales in those territories might eventually lead to direct distribution by the label itself, or at least higher license fees?

Because as I said, the money made from Scarecrow sales goes mostly to scarecrow, and only a % of it goes to the actual copyright owner. I'm kind of stunned you even make the argument of bigger sales in "those territories." Do you live in Mexico? No. Why do you care about sales in Mexico? Wouldn't you rather the band tour the USA and come to your city?

The notion of illegal downloading being better is my personal opinion, because at least that way you get the music and nobody makes money, which is better than you spending your disposable income on a third party which would've initially went to the label/band. There is a LITERAL loss of money in this case, which is waaaay worse in my opinion than illegally downloading it. The fact that people are trying to justify it is almost as humerous as those justifying illegal downloading (hurr durr, I have a right to the muzik). Not saying I don't download, but I don't really like to justify it either.

Does this mean if I buy a cd that has been licensed by, say, Nightmare Records, that I'm screwing some band who doesn't have direct distribution in the US?

No, because you live in the US, and you were meant to buy the US version. If you want to see the band tour the US, you buy the US version.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

First of all, I asked an honest question. Saying it's a "stupid argument" and telling me I'm ignorant doesn't really accomplish anything, unless you're trying to solidify your reputation here as an asshole. If so, mission accomplished, but I have to say it tends to de-legitimize whatever points you're trying to make.

It's a stupid argument because you are trying to justify something that isn't right to begin with. Again, buying a bootleg is also a "sale" but that doesn't make it right. You guys are just using shallow arguments because A) either this is a practice you already regularly partook in without realizing it was wrong and are scrambling to defend it as a machination, or B) you just want to pointlessly argue with me for the sake of it. Even Claus agreed with me. Why are you arguing it? For internet points?

And btdubs, implying that I am being illogical isn't an "honest question." Let's be real here, you were the one that shat first bro.

Second, if these regional labels (Scarecrow, Avalon, etc.) have a distribution license with Nuclear Blast, then Nuclear Blast is getting paid. If Nuclear Blast is getting paid, the bands are geting paid. They may not be getting paid as much as they would if we waited patiently for an album's evantual US release, but equating the purchase of an import disc to an illegal download makes no sense at all.

Not exactly. They get a very minimal amount on royalties, but they don't make nearly as much as they do on the versions of the albums THEY release. Let's put it this way to you, if everyone in the US bought the Marquee/Avalon version, NBUSA would drop them, and the band would probably never play the US again and no other label would want to sign them either.

I'm done with this topic, I apologize to OP and all of you for derailing this thread!

 

[Metaldrumz]

Obviously the band isn't going to care. In fact, most bands these days even say "go download our album if you cannot afford it, as long as you listen to the music," they don't know/want to know the business behind CD sales, as it's not their job. This is also a terrible argument. Also I love how like 70% of the bands you listed don't tour much (if at all) and generally have low CD sales (like Steel Panther, which was a disaster for Universal - albeit a shame because they rule). Hmmm!!!

Steel Panther just finished recording album #2 which is due out in September. There is also a TV show in the works (and I am not referring to the Comedy Central pilot that they rejected). Add that to weekly jam packed shows in Vegas and Cali, numerous upcoming festival appearances, and more. I don't consider that a "disaster". I'd like to see those awful CD sale statistics you speak of.

I don't know what bands you talk too, but I can tell you the ones I do, do not like the illegal downloading. I'm not gonna mention names but I can tell you from someone who has over 300 musicians on his MSN and speak to many frequently you are talking out of your ass.

I'd like to see you bring some CD-R's to PPUSA and ask the band to sign them. After all as long as you "listen" to the music they don't care.

Seriously I think the highlight of your life is sitting at the computer jerking off while you refresh this forum and conjure up some idiotic banter that you thinks gonna make you look high and mighty. Pretty pathetic.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Steel Panther debuted in its first week with a little less than 5,000 units sold. For a UNIVERSAL release, (sourse: soundscan) that's awful.

And just one artist who told his fans to download the album most recently is Skrillex, who probably outsells every band you "talk to." But Trivum (another band that outsells every band you talk to), Darkest Hour, and a bunch of others have done so too. But again, Not going to discuss this any further. Sorry.

 

[dcowboys311]

Steel Panther just finished recording album #2 which is due out in September. There is also a TV show in the works (and I am not referring to the Comedy Central pilot that they rejected). Add that to weekly jam packed shows in Vegas and Cali, numerous upcoming festival appearances, and more. I don't consider that a "disaster". I'd like to see those awful CD sale statistics you speak of.

Universal's pretty big. What might come off as a massive success for Nuclear Blast or Century Media is a complete failure for a label like Universal. Do you really believe that Steel Panther is on the same level of success as 3 Doors Down, AFI, Bon Jovi, Incubus, or any of the other hundreds of artists on Universal?

I don't know what bands you talk too, but I can tell you the ones I do, do not like the illegal downloading. I'm not gonna mention names but I can tell you from someone who has over 300 musicians on his MSN and speak to many frequently you are talking out of your ass.

I've seen plenty of bands tell people at shows to download their music. Thursday comes to mind. Another case of you not knowing what you're talking about.

I'd like to see you bring some CD-R's to PPUSA and ask the band to sign them. After all as long as you "listen" to the music they don't care.

Well, yeah...just like they'll laugh at you if you ask them to sign the piece of gum you saw them spit out on stage, the Walmart receipt you found in the trash can for their guitar pedal batteries, etc. Seriously, what kind of argument is this??

 

[Comic Book Dude]

No, because you live in the US, and you were meant to buy the US version. If you want to see the band tour the US, you buy the US version.

But didn't you say the copyright holders make little money on product licensed to outside parties? If so, we should all make sure to buy cd's directly from the label of origin to make sure the bands and the label get the most out of their sales....well, that's if we are REAL supporters of said band, correct? So I guess if a cd was released in Japan only, because I'm a US citizen I shouldn't/can't buy it because it wasn't a US version? I know you're done with this topic, but I just had to ask!

 

[Metaldrumz]

Considering the band uses words like COCK, CUNT, PUSSY, TITS, ASS, FAT and on, and on.....I don't think Universal was expecting the next "Bon Jovi" or "3 Doors Down".

It was 6,000 sales not 5,000 Mr. Know It All. Also I wonder why they would dial up a SECOND ALBUM for September 2011 if they lost so much money, and it was a "disaster".

Quality thread.....first I'm being told that buying a Mexican import is harming bands......and then I'm being told that bands condone downloading. Say hello to IRONY!

Wow nice way to have a win win argument!

 

[AeonicSlumber]

But didn't you say the copyright holders make little money on product licensed to outside parties? If so, we should all make sure to buy cd's directly from the label of origin to make sure the bands and the label get the most out of their sales....well, that's if we are REAL supporters of said band, correct? !

On a technical level, you are absolutely right. The most money would go to the label that owns the rights to the recordings. But, what I said we "should" do, is buy the record that is released in OUR territory. If we all bought the European version, the US licensee would get mad, lose money, and drop the release and the band would not come to the US or be released in the US most likely every again. Do you get it now?

So I guess if a cd was released in Japan only, because I'm a US citizen I shouldn't/can't buy it because it wasn't a US version?

This has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

It was 6,000 sales not 5,000 Mr. Know It All. Also I wonder why they would dial up a SECOND ALBUM for September 2011 if they lost so much money, and it was a "disaster".

A quick cruise on MetalSucks.net (which gets its soundscan info from Metal Insider) says 4,600 first week and 14,000 3 weeks later. I'd ague that your article is probably wrong, but it doesn't matter. Anything less than 20,000 first week for a Universal record is pretty much bad. The label might believe in the band enough to give them a second chance. If the next one tanks, they'll get dropped.

Quality thread.....first I'm being told that buying a Mexican import is harming bands......and then I'm being told that bands condone downloading. Say hello to IRONY!

Wow nice way to have a win win argument!

Here's a shovel, keep digging yourself into a hole man with your sophomoric arguments and 3rd grade level of ignorance. We just gave you examples of bands that condone downloading that outsell every band you listen to and you still refuse to believe it(and in doing so, missed the much larger point I made that bands don't know what they're talking about when it comes to business - not every band of course, but a large portion - hence the need for management and lawyers)? Do you want to refuse gravity too? I also just gave you several spelled out examples of how buying imports harms bands, and you still refuse to read?

And yes, I am seriously done with this topic now. I did feel Comic book dude asked a cool enough question that warranted an answer, but now without a doubt I have nothing else to say on this topic.

 

[Metaldrumz]

Oh believe me he's not done with the topic yet. He hasn't finished blowing his loads for the day.

Here's a shovel, keep digging yourself into a hole man with your sophomoric arguments and 3rd grade level of ignorance.

Like I was saying...

EDIT: What I think you're failing to see is the humor in this. First you throw a hissy fit about me buying a Scarecrow Records import, but then turn around and say bands condone downloading. So if bands condone downloading which is FREE, and the Scarecrow import is basically like downloading it FREE....then there should be NO PROBLEM and I did NOT "harm the band" as they would condone a download anyways.

And if you think Universal expected to sell 20,000 albums in its first week from a band that sings about sticking your finger in someones ass than you're a bigger idiot than I thought!

 

[nomisofsiman]

No, because you live in the US, and you were meant to buy the US version. If you want to see the band tour the US, you buy the US version.

Exactly. I think part of it is people get impatient and they want to listen to it asap, but come on, for a band like SymX, it's obviously going to have a US release, you might as well buy it then.

 

[Cronopio]

Regarding the new Symphony X: It's ok. A bit too dark and mechanical, even though that was obviously what they were going for with the theme and all. Still prefer their early 2000 outputs, tho.