Syria.

[JHA]

First off, if you think I watch Fox news you have clearly misidentified me - perhaps there in lies the issue

Funny thing is we probably agree on more things than you think we do - well, at least on one thing you mentioned in this post (I let you wonder which one it is)

I guess my overall question for many in this thread is. Ff the US is the "bad" guy in your narrative, are the others mentioned in this thread really the "good" guys? Or, perhaps those propped up as being the "good" guys are really simply the other side of a two headed coin? Anyone that thinks any of the parties involved are working for purely altruistic reasons is probably delusional.

As I stated earlier - the world is much more grey than many in this thread paint it as, irregardless of their country of origin. There are very few definitive angels or devils in this world - most people think. or can convince themselves, they are doing the "correct" thing at the time they do it.

I don't think there are "good guys" in wars. The foot soldiers may be and that's because they have no idea why they are really fighting. Everyone else involved have some agenda. In the end no one wins except the companies and the rich people making profit. For others there is just dead people and destruction. I don't actually think US as the bad guy here but the whole Western coalition's actions and motives are questionable. It would be lot easier to accept if they said honestly that they are going there to gain possession of resources. We can argue about this to the end but that's my opinion why they are gaining territory in the Middle-East.

I can give a real example of this and it's not fiction. I live in a country that Soviet Union tried to invade twice during WWII and the reason they used was totally fake. They lied to their people and soldiers we had a cruel dictator who killed our own people to motivate them. The foot soldiers started the invasion believing they be welcomed by us and would be freeing our people from a "dictator's evil government". The real reason was Stalin wanted to gain possession of certain parts of our land to build a naval base for war purposes as our government did not agree to give them access to the land. The city I currently live in was bombed to shit twice by Soviet Union and then later burned to the ground with half of the country by Germany. Guess which country? Do you see any similarity with several "helpings" the West has done lately?

 

[Mutant]

I don't think there are "good guys" in wars.

Obviously it depends on the point of view.

For (most of) the rebels in Syria the good guys would be anyone who would help them fight against Assad.

Just like for a huge majority of people of Poland the good guys would be our allies we had defensive pacts signed with before the WW2 exploded - they didn't do shit though which resulted in Hitler and Stalin gaining control over a huge part of Europe with all its natural and human resources and prolonged the war to 6 years while it could be extinguished in less than 1 year if only all the allies took action instantly.

Same thing will happen in Syria - the war will continue for many more years because no one will intervene.

 

[JHA]

Obviously it depends on the point of view.

For (most of) the rebels in Syria the good guys would be anyone who would help them fight against Assad.

Just like for a huge majority of people of Poland the good guys would be our allies we had defensive pacts signed with before the WW2 exploded - they didn't do shit though which resulted in Hitler and Stalin gaining control over a huge part of Europe with all its natural and human resources and prolonged the war to 6 years while it could be extinguished in less than 1 year if only all the allies took action instantly.

Same thing will happen in Syria - the war will continue for many more years because no one will intervene.

I assume you are from Poland and you know that Soviet Union was part of the Allies during WWII? You can Google photos of England, USA and Russia'a leaders together smiling.

Did you also know, that Soviet Union invaded Poland and while in there practiced the same massacre as Germany did (concentration camps, execution of minorities and political opposition)? Their plan was to split Europe in two for Stalin and Hitler. Good guys?

Did you also know that, Soviet Union, the Allies and "good guys" raped every woman in Germany they could get their hands on during the invasion?

The majority of the assaults were committed in the Soviet occupation zone; estimates of the numbers of German women raped by Soviet soldiers range from the tens of thousands to 2 million. In many cases women were the victims of repeated rapes, some as many as 60 to 70 times. At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin, based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports, with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath. Female deaths in connection with the rapes in Germany, overall, are estimated at 240,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

How can you call these good guys?

 

[Mutant]

I assume you are from Poland and you know that Soviet Union was part of the Allies during WWII?

I know everything about it.
Stalin turned into an "ally" (not for Poland) only after his buddy Hitler decided to attack him.
For my country freedom ended in 1939 and returned in 1989, my grandparents were in the resistance movement called WIN (Wolnosc i Niezawislosc), grandgrandma spent 7 years in the prison... probably tortured too.
That old communist lie of "brave liberators and our great eastern slavic friends driving out nazi german forces from our beloved motherland"... yes we heard it in schools, but our parents told most of us how it really was.

Did you also know that, Soviet Union, the Allies and "good guys" raped every woman in Germany they could get their hands on during the invasion?

A huge % of the Red Army were savages (literally) from uncivilized far north-eastern parts of Russia, most of them could not even write or read.

How can you call these good guys?

Never said anything like that.
I was talking about how the west would be viewed as good guys if they did what they were supposed to do when it actually counted most.

But they didn't even though they knew exactly what was happening.

You can Google photos of England, USA and Russia'a leaders together smiling.

And then they betrayed us again in Yalta - a "nice" thanks for all our soldiers fighting on almost all fronts of WW2

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

Yalta sucked, and I know quite a few people in the U.S. who think we made a grave error by letting Stalin get away with taking over most of Eastern Europe, but unfortunately I don't think we had much of a choice. FDR was old and sick, and although he probably knew Stalin wasn't a good guy in the long run, the Cold War only really began after the conference at Yalta ended. And if we really wanted to stop Stalin, we would have had to fight another war, which at that time probably would have involved the use of nuclear weapons on the USSR.

But that's just my view, and it's interesting to hear what you guys from Poland think, since your country was most directly affected by it.

 

[Mutant]

Yalta sucked, and I know quite a few people in the U.S. who think we made a grave error by letting Stalin get away with taking over most of Eastern Europe, but unfortunately I don't think we had much of a choice. FDR was old and sick, and although he probably knew Stalin wasn't a good guy in the long run, the Cold War only really began after the conference at Yalta ended. And if we really wanted to stop Stalin, we would have had to fight another war, which at that time probably would have involved the use of nuclear weapons on the USSR.

But that's just my view, and it's interesting to hear what you guys from Poland think, since your country was most directly affected by it.

I don't think there would be a war between west and east - the whole world was too tired of war.
I only think that if only Roosevelt and Churchill had more balls and were better negotiators, maybe Poland would not have to lose these 50 years of forced on us communism that almost destroyed our economy.

OK but enough about Poland, i only gave the WW2 example to show that sometimes an armed intervention is more than justified - it is the only good choice.

As i said before there is already a war in Syria and we (NATO) could do something to end the war, but Obama totally blew it and now there is no political climate for any such action.

 

[JHA]

Yalta sucked, and I know quite a few people in the U.S. who think we made a grave error by letting Stalin get away with taking over most of Eastern Europe, but unfortunately I don't think we had much of a choice. FDR was old and sick, and although he probably knew Stalin wasn't a good guy in the long run, the Cold War only really began after the conference at Yalta ended. And if we really wanted to stop Stalin, we would have had to fight another war, which at that time probably would have involved the use of nuclear weapons on the USSR.

But that's just my view, and it's interesting to hear what you guys from Poland think, since your country was most directly affected by it.

This is why I said earlier there were four factions instead of two in WWII. Stalin sneaked in Soviet Union as Allies even though they were every bit as bad as Hitler's Germany.

I am not from Poland, I don't know how you got that impression?

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

This is why I said earlier there were four factions instead of two in WWII. Stalin sneaked in Soviet Union as Allies even though they were every bit as bad as Hitler's Germany.

I am not from Poland, I don't know how you got that impression?

Misread your previous post, didn't see your other one. Assume you're from one of the Baltic states.

BTW- for any interested parties, this guy's column is fantastic: http://exiledonline.com/cat/war-nerd/

He writes for NSFWCorp, which is a small-scale news crew funded by subscribers, so they aren't beholden to what some of you might term "corporate interests." This guy's column in particular is really great. Kind of morose, but very funny and accurate. He covers modern and historical military stuff.

 

[Skinny Viking]

you guys still aren't done convincing everyone else that they're wrong?

fucking war will end before this thread

 

[JHA]

Misread your previous post, didn't see your other one. Assume you're from one of the Baltic states.

BTW- for any interested parties, this guy's column is fantastic: http://exiledonline.com/cat/war-nerd/

He writes for NSFWCorp, which is a small-scale news crew funded by subscribers, so they aren't beholden to what some of you might term "corporate interests." This guy's column in particular is really great. Kind of morose, but very funny and accurate. He covers modern and historical military stuff.

Hmm, no offense but you have quite poor knowledge of history and/or geography considering you mentioned having university degree in "international relations." Not a Baltic country, close but not. All the Baltic countries were either under Soviet or Germany's power during WWII and long after that. Like Mutant mentioned Poland got off under Russia only in the 80s and the rest in the 90s when Soviet Union disbanded. We precisely avoided what they could not. I thought the naval base would give you some hint as we had to lend it to Russia anyway as a part of peace treaty. Russia is still trying to boss around and they try to threat when one of the countries wants to join EU or NATO.

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

Hmm, no offense but you have quite poor knowledge of history and/or geography considering you mentioned having university degree in "international relations." Not a Baltic country, close but not. All the Baltic countries were either under Soviet or Germany's power during WWII and long after that. Like Mutant mentioned Poland got off under Russia only in the 80s and the rest in the 90s when Soviet Union disbanded. We precisely avoided what they could not. I thought the naval base would give you some hint as we had to lend it to Russia anyway as a part of peace treaty. Russia is still trying to boss around and they try to threat when one of the countries wants to join EU or NATO.

If you had said "Winter War," I would have known what country you were talking about, but the naval base thing threw me off. I didn't remember that that was why the Soviets invaded. And yes, I know Poland was part of the USSR Eastern European (and Nordic) history during WWII is admittedly a weak point of mine.

I actually have a thing for Soviet history, but in the 4-5 books I've read about it and the classes I've taken (even with Russian professors), people tend to focus overwhelmingly on Russia and Poland- Russia because it was really the seat of power in the USSR, and Poland because it heralded the breakup of the USSR. But the Baltic states, Russia's wars with Finland, etc. don't get mentioned nearly as much, nor do Soviet proxy wars in developing countries, which is the kind of stuff I love studying.

 

[Mutant]

I know Poland was part of the USSR

Nope

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

Nope

Woooow I am terrible. It was not, but it was part of the Soviet bloc, which I did know! Apologies haha. Always more to learn.

 

[J.Paine]

I find it so bloody strange that Americans or anyone can still think their country can act responsibly in war. Time and time again their administration fails to apply the same justice it demands of the world (the parts near an oil supply anyway). I understand that its impossible to avoid these atrocities but even today in the shadow of recent wars the US cannot take care of its own war villains. Until then its hypocrisy negates it from any good willed intervention as it has not shown a pattern of at least trying to make up for its many wrong doings.

 

[JHA]

Woooow I am terrible. It was not, but it was part of the Soviet bloc, which I did know! Apologies haha. Always more to learn.

Also it was not Winter War but Continuation War, the second war.

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

Also it was not Winter War but Continuation War, the second war.

That I actually did know, but IIRC the Winter War was originally attributed to the naval base thing?

"On 5 October 1939, the Soviet Union invited a Finnish delegation to Moscow for negotiations. J.K. Paasikivi, the Finnish ambassador to Sweden, was sent to Moscow to represent the Finnish government.[50] The Soviets demanded that the border between the USSR and Finland on the Karelian Isthmus be moved westward to a point only 30 km (19 mi) east of Viipuri and that the Finns destroy all existing fortifications on the Karelian Isthmus. They also demanded the cession of islands in the Gulf of Finland as well as the Kalastajansaarento peninsula. Furthermore, the Finns would have to lease the Hanko Peninsula for 30 years and permit the Soviets to establish a military base there. "

But like I said, not my area of "expertise" unfortunately.

 

[JHA]

Yes technically that's true but we took Hanko back in the Continuation War and had to lease it again afterwards in addition to losing huge chunks of our land and paying silly amount of money to Soviet even though we were the victims and they were the aggressors. If you notice in this scenario, there is some similarities to the more current conflicts. However, no Allies came to help us. England, US, France etc. all denied help even though they all admitted the Soviet Union was in the wrong. In all honesty the Soviet Union is said to have had three times as large an army as the Allies together at the time. So that was probably a factor.

 

[JHA]

Rebel forces in Syria killed as many as 190 civilians and seized more than 200 hostages during a military offensive in August, Human Rights Watch says.

The report says ISIS and Jaysh al-Muhajirin were still holding the hostages, most of them women and children.

HRW says evidence including witness statements and a review of hospital records showed opposition forces executed or unlawfully killed at least 67 of the 190 dead civilians who were identified.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24486627

These animals you want to support?

I have to seriously doubt what USA stands for today. Who are the the bad guys here?

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24486627

These animals you want to support?

I have to seriously doubt what USA stands for today. Who are the the bad guys here?

Hahah dude, I thought this was a closed case.

I don't want to support the rebels either, and neither do most Americans at this point. In every revolution during the Arab Spring so far, you've seen an initial outpouring of opposition to the regime by ordinary people. Once those people get shot at and beaten, the only ones left on the streets are jihadists with Ak-47s. This is precisely what's happened in Syria.

I would have been a strong advocate for American involvement very early on, when the people fighting and protesting were ordinary Syrians, like what we did in Libya. But at this point, we would be helping extremist organizations organize a genocide against the Alawites living in the western provinces.

And although President Obama has supposedly committed to helping the rebels, you can find numerous reports claiming that even the non-lethal aid (gasmasks, MREs, etc.) has been very slow in arriving. I'm not even sure we've actually sent any weapons to them, and even if we have, they would be funneled toward the secular factions of the Free Syrian Army, which at this point are not the groups achieving major military gains.

 

[JHA]

Hahah dude, I thought this was a closed case.

I don't want to support the rebels either, and neither do most Americans at this point. In every revolution during the Arab Spring so far, you've seen an initial outpouring of opposition to the regime by ordinary people. Once those people get shot at and beaten, the only ones left on the streets are jihadists with Ak-47s. This is precisely what's happened in Syria.

I would have been a strong advocate for American involvement very early on, when the people fighting and protesting were ordinary Syrians, like what we did in Libya. But at this point, we would be helping extremist organizations organize a genocide against the Alawites living in the western provinces.

And although President Obama has supposedly committed to helping the rebels, you can find numerous reports claiming that even the non-lethal aid (gasmasks, MREs, etc.) has been very slow in arriving. I'm not even sure we've actually sent any weapons to them, and even if we have, they would be funneled toward the secular factions of the Free Syrian Army, which at this point are not the groups achieving major military gains.

This is in the news everywhere now. Probably not that much in the USA? Not saying Americans support the rebels but the government and/or army definitely does. The other UN/NATO countries are backing off from these "liberation wars" slowly but surely. I think you guys need a revolution there to get the lunatics off the power.