Syria.

[aramism]

oh and I don't think Vladmir Putin is a "good person" nor is anyone in any country involved in politics, everyone is equally corrupt in every country in the world and every politician. it's just the way things are. but fronting about it like the US does at times, and SUPER transparently is doing now is what gets me, and others upset.

Putin might be many things, but his OP-ED piece was ON POINT. Even if he is a hypocrite about human rights and stuff, it doesn't change the fact that he's right.

 

[J.Paine]

I'm talking in terms of the United States' major strategic goals. First and foremost aong those is fostering strong democracies.

...we uphold democratic values as an international norm.

...the U.S. is really, truly concerned about fostering democratization in countries where we can help out.

America in the past has assassinated Chilean officials in a democratic process. More recently it has bank rolled local elections in Japan to counter any possible government that could arise in opposition to its military bases.

We like democracies because we trust them

Trust: 1)The assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden
How many countries was the very trusting USA spying on exactly? I lost count.

they aren't skeevy...

Skeevy: 1) disgusting or distasteful. 2) morally or physically repulsive.

Democracies not skeevy?

Lebanon arranges its parliament according to religion and genetics.
Turkey has in recent times made it illegal to be Kurdish.
America has gassed thousands of Vietnamese civilians, 12% of Vietnamese land with its effects still lasting to this day.
Russia is currently running a pogrom against all homosexuals.
Australia is and will further its laws hiding political donations subverting its own peoples vote.

That is just off the top of my head. I could easily go on about the “skeevy” behaviour of the US. Would not be hard. Might be fun.

...they don't murder their own people...

Anwar al Awaki, 40 years of age, US citizen.
No Trial. Suspected of terrorism. State murder by American drone, September 30, 2011.

Two weeks later:
Abulrahman al Awaki, 16 years of age, US citizen.
No Trial. State murder by American drone, October 14, 2011. Suspected of?

"I would suggest that you should have a far more responsible father” - White House press secretary Robert Gibbs

Suspected of having the wrong father. Guilt by association. Without trial.

The only other country that I can think of that actually applies this brand of justice is North Korea.

 

[aramism]

also, Syria was more "Free" than Turkey ever was and the US is on Turkey's nutsack forever due to their tactical alliance. Where's the "exceptionalism" there? Oh, it's only when it's convenient to politics and economy.

 

[aramism]

America in the past has assassinated Chilean officials in a democratic process. More recently it has bank rolled local elections in Japan to counter any possible government that could arise in opposition to its military bases.


Trust: 1)The assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden
How many countries was the very trusting USA spying on exactly? I lost count.


Skeevy: 1) disgusting or distasteful. 2) morally or physically repulsive.

Democracies not skeevy?

Lebanon arranges its parliament according to religion and genetics.
Turkey has in recent times made it illegal to be Kurdish.
America has gassed thousands of Vietnamese civilians, 12% of Vietnamese land with its effects still lasting to this day.
Russia is currently running a pogrom against all homosexuals.
Australia is and will further its laws hiding political donations subverting its own peoples vote.

That is just off the top of my head. I could easily go on about the “skeevy” behaviour of the US. Would not be hard. Might be fun.


Anwar al Awaki, 40 years of age, US citizen.
No Trial. Suspected of terrorism. State murder by American drone, September 30, 2011.

Two weeks later:
Abulrahman al Awaki, 16 years of age, US citizen.
No Trial. State murder by American drone, October 14, 2011. Suspected of?

"I would suggest that you should have a far more responsible father” - White House press secretary Robert Gibbs

Suspected of having the wrong father. Guilt by association. Without trial.

The only other country that I can think of that actually applies this brand of justice is North Korea.

and don't forget Iran in the 40s

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

You really think the American media is any better???


6 corporations control 90% of all American media:
http://www.businessinsider.com/these-6-corporations-control-90-of-the-media-in-america-2012-6


The CIA has previously admitted using the news to manipulate the public:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ED63A_hcd0


Look at the CIA Bengazi talking points scandal earlier in the year:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...hazi-cia-talking-point-edits-white-house.html

Some of the information being falsified isn't even the real scandal. It's the fact that the government are giving out lines for the mass media to echo to the entire population instead of journalists actually investigating and collecting information themselves.


Your government censor the media to make sure they get their message across:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/16/us/politics/latest-word-on-the-campaign-trail-i-take-it-back.html

"Quote approval is standard practice for the Obama campaign… It is also commonplace throughout Washington and on the campaign trail… From Capitol Hill to the Treasury Department, interviews granted only with quote approval have become the default position."



If you think you have a free press in America, or anywhere for that matter, then you're burying your head in the sand. Everyone's trying to forward their own agenda so if you want a balanced view of whats going on in the world then you really need to get your news from as many different world viewpoints as you can. So yes that means listening to what the Russians think, and the Chinese, and even those in the Middle East, because all you hear is what your government allows the media to tell you.

Mainstream news is VERY good at making you think you're getting the whole picture by offering two slightly different views, but there's often several other points of view that aren't even mentioned.
A good example was the UK Lib Dem/Conservative argument we had a few months back of whether we should renew 3 or 4 of our nuclear submarines. Throughout the coverage I saw absolutely ZERO mention of scrapping the whole thing and not having a nuclear deterrent! It's all about giving you the illusion of choice.

^This is what people need to be talking about. I wish people would talk more about these points. We are in the "Information Age" my ass.

...

Do you see what I see?
Truth is an offense
You silence for your confidence

Do you hear what I hear?
Doors are slamming shut
Limit your imagination, keep you where they must

Do you feel what I feel?
Bittering distress
Who decides what you express?

Do you take what I take?
Endurance is the word
Moving back instead of forward seems to me absurd

Doesn't matter what you see
Or to do with what you read
You can do it your own way
If it's done just how I say

Independence limited
Freedom of choice is made for you my friend
Freedom of speech is words that they will bend
Freedom with their exception

Do you fear what I fear?
Living properly
Truths to you are lies to me

Do you choose what I choose?
More alternatives
Energy derives from both the plus and negative

Do you need what I need?
Boundaries overthrown
Look inside, to each his own

Do you trust what I trust?
Me, myself and I
Penetrate the smoke screen, I see through the selfish lie

Doesn't matter what you see
Or into it what you read
You can do it your own way
If it's done just how I say

Independence limited
Freedom of choice is made for you my friend
Freedom of speech is words that they will bend
Freedom with their exception

Do you know what I know?
Your money and your wealth
You silence just to hear yourself

Do you want what I want?
Desire not a thing
I hunger after independence, lengthen freedom's ring

Doesn't matter what you see
Or into it what you read
You can do it your own way
If it's done just how I say

Independence limited
Freedom of choice is made for you my friend
Freedom of speech is words that they will bend
Freedom no longer frees you

Doesn't matter what you see
Or into it what you read
You can do it your own way
If it's done just how I say

 

[JHA]

looooool I've said 3X now that I don't think we should be arming the rebels, or attacking Assad for that matter. It's not in the U.S. national interest and it won't help much, if at all. I'm just arguing against ludicrous conspiracy theories and saying people should form an informed view of the situation.

And you need to realize that those people who are going to form an informed view of the situation are not going to rely it only on your opinions and views. I'm quite sure everyone here can form their own opinion so no need for thought control.

 

[Jind]

I'm quite sure everyone here can form their own opinion so no need for thought control.

Thus the saying - "opinions are like assholes - everybody has one" seems applicable.

It's clear that no one in this thread is going to be swayed by any opposing opinion. People are going to continue to link to information that backs their particular world view while generally distrusting any information that might differ from said view - it's the way of the world.

So the question is what's the point? Ultimately it is up to each individual to form their own opinion, but with that goes the acceptance that others will disagree; the truth most likely falling somewhere in between the various absolute convictions expressed.

 

[Via Noctis]

You guys are overly opinionated. Turn off the TV once and a while. :stir the pot:

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

And you need to realize that those people who are going to form an informed view of the situation are not going to rely it only on your opinions and views. I'm quite sure everyone here can form their own opinion so no need for thought control.

I'm not asking them to, but my point throughout has been that it's ludicrous to be reactionarily anti-U.S. because of emotional reasons. If you rely on a balanced view of things, read unbiased news sources, and don't charge into things with preconceived ideology, you'll quickly find that your notions of how things work shift a great deal. You'll always be able to cherry-pick evidence to fit whatever your perspective is, especially on the interwebz. But I've certainly said my piece and probably alienated at least a few people, so I'll let sleeping dogs lie But I appreciate the spirited debate regardless, and I'm glad people aren't blasé about the issue.

 

[J.Paine]

Unfortunately "unbiased news sources" do not exist. RT is as questionable as any corporate owned station.

One should only consider the facts. In the question "Is something true?" credentialism and the ad hominem are superfluous. A fact is true no matter the source. If it is not true it ceases to be a fact, verification is the hard part and does involve research but to dismiss something because of its source is just dumb. Question everything.

One of the biggest problems with this world is that people think there has to be a "good guy" or at least a "better guy". They are stuck in the thinking that everything is a narrative out of a book. The Russian media is evil, the American media is good. Syria is evil, Britain is good. What utter bullshit. It is even bullshit to assign evil to America with all its wrong doings.

And because of this they are also stuck in the thinking freedom is a choice of "left" or "right" and that "their democracy" is the best but when analysed objectively it is often a very weak form of democracy. Both sides of whatever spectrum of politics has been bought by someone.

Anyone worth their salt bends with the facts. At this point in our history there are very few reasons to believe that America is acting altruistically, likewise of Russia. It is the same for any government because assigning an emotional motivation to a bureaucratic system is stupid in the first place. If you want to judge an administration, do so based on what they have done in the past. Then look to what they have said. Sometimes more truth is found in the gap between the two.

There is no reason to believe an intelligence agency when by its nature it fails to operate under public scrutiny. There are even less reasons to believe parliament considering that most governments are too secretive and do not conduct themselves openly.

 

[AD Chaos]

"RT, previously known as Russia Today, is an international multilingual Russian-based television network. It is registered as an autonomous non-profit organization[2][3] funded by the federal budget of Russia through the Federal Agency on Press and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation.[4][5]"

It's like Fox News on really devious, awful steroids. At least Pravda was forthcoming about its ideological perspective.

It's true that RT is Russian, even though they have headquarters in Washington, if I'm not mistaken.

Putin has a lot to gain from this conflict. On the one hand he wants to protect (and perhaps even advance?) his interests and influence in the region, and on the other, push his international role (and that of Russia) forward.

He will seize on the fact that Obama & friends do everything they can to destroy whatever global credibility the ''US'' government/media still has, by picking up a role and championing himself as a global 'protector' against fascist corporatism. And to do so, he only has to denounce the warmongering and lobbying in the US government to the rest of the world (which is quite evident to those not bombarded by local US misinformation channels, not only because of RT).

So while you may say that Putin has an agenda of his own (I agree with you there) that doesn't necessarily mean that he's lying on his statements -or that of 'his' media. He doesn't need to (atm, at least), and that gives him an increasing amount of leverage on the global platform.

Why are you comparing RT to US media? Since they often go in opposite directions, which one do you believe?

 

[AD Chaos]

Are we to believe that America has suffered a sudden pang of altruism, despite its repeated history of warmongering for its own economic interests in the past?

Not to dismiss any altruism on the part of some of the population in the US, but the more direct concern is (or should be) at least also economical:

http://bastiat.mises.org/2013/09/the-costs-of-war-in-syria/


This war on Syria also has the potential to further accelerate the crash of the dollar and bite us all (who don't live in the East or are incredibly rich) in the arse:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/357740

 

[JHA]

I'm not asking them to, but my point throughout has been that it's ludicrous to be reactionarily anti-U.S. because of emotional reasons. If you rely on a balanced view of things, read unbiased news sources, and don't charge into things with preconceived ideology, you'll quickly find that your notions of how things work shift a great deal. You'll always be able to cherry-pick evidence to fit whatever your perspective is, especially on the interwebz. But I've certainly said my piece and probably alienated at least a few people, so I'll let sleeping dogs lie But I appreciate the spirited debate regardless, and I'm glad people aren't blasé about the issue.

You are doing it again without even realizing. You have no idea who's emotional here and who's not. Try to stay on the subject instead of trying to ridicule those who oppose your opinion. You should know it's a common tactic when you're being bested in an argument. I'm not going to change what I read and where from just because you think I should only read certain sources that fit in your agenda. That's another common tactic, try to invalidate all the sources of information that do not fit your agenda. I don't care if you're from Washington DC and if you've studied this, you are zero authority to me. Sorry man, keep going to school and better luck next time.

 

[JHA]

One good example of how flawed the "good guy, bad guy" thinking is this:

Both of them were chosen as the man/person of the year. Which one is the good guy?

 

[aramism]

I hope all of you realize that Syria was one of the most secular states in the region. You will be hard pressed to find many ACTUAL residents and nationals who oppose Assad and support the revolution. Hence why Assad is still in power and runs a very stable government aside from the intense EXTERNAL forces which are attacking Syria. His army still fights to defend the nation and the people back him overwhelmingly. I happen to have many syrian friends and know many people who live/lived in syria and this is a fact not my opinion. It is well documented in many instances despite the propaganda and ignorance of the western media (which as others have pointed out is nearly and relatively equally unbiased as any other country).

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

I hope all of you realize that Syria was one of the most secular states in the region. You will be hard pressed to find many ACTUAL residents and nationals who oppose Assad and support the revolution. Hence why Assad is still in power and runs a very stable government aside from the intense EXTERNAL forces which are attacking Syria. His army still fights to defend the nation and the people back him overwhelmingly. I happen to have many syrian friends and know many people who live/lived in syria and this is a fact not my opinion. It is well documented in many instances despite the propaganda and ignorance of the western media (which as others have pointed out is nearly and relatively equally unbiased as any other country).

Bashar, what did I tell you about posting on internet forums?

 

[aramism]

Well, Barack, no one said anything about my instagram, so I figured why not a metal forum?

 

[Fox Mulder]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=37b_1378633407

 

[SocialNumb]

good shit.

 

[indecizo]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=37b_1378633407

Is this for real?