the decline

rahvin

keeper of the flame
Oct 10, 2001
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safe but not far from the city
something that's been bugging me for some time:

in my opinion all bands/singers/musicians with ideas express themselves at their best during the early stages of their career. perhaps their first records are too naive or cliched, but once they have reached maturity, they put out a couple of very good works then start repeating themselves or making clumsy attempts at trying directions they never were made to tread.
the following albums can still be good, even very good at times, but in terms of creativity they really lack that certain something that sets excellent craftmanship apart from conceptual innovation.
the way i see it, there are no exceptions to this rule, maybe not even dark tranquillity, despite being my favourite band and all. i'll try to present some examples of my point of view so that you can relate to sensible data in expressing your opinion.
i'm about to mention metal bands because that's what you're most likely interested in, but i'm not singling them out. so if you think the latest album by in flames is actually their best effort, don't flame me for suggesting otherwise because i was trying to prove something entirely different from a single band's worth.

iron maiden -- their most ground-breaking stuff seems to be in the number of the beast and powerslave. if we accept that earlier they were brilliant but rough, and later they've become overly monotonous, the apex of their career is already a long time ago. "hallowed be thy name" can be seen as fathering everything that followed from "alexander the great" to "afraid to shoot strangers" to "blood brothers". one might like the later songs better nowadays, but the original idea is still the one they used back in 1982. and have they come up with anything as creative as that after 1985?

in flames -- the jester race, then a pretty good swan song with whoracle, then it's over. all melodically enticing guitar riffs already played, all power-metallish combinations of growls and uptempos already tried.

dark tranquillity -- here i'm a bit uncertain about the number of really creative albums, but the outcome seems to be similar nonetheless. there were certainly earth-shattering ideas in skydancer and the mind's i and projector, so maturity came early and creativity lasted a long time. but are haven and damage done on that same level of furious shooting out of new ideas? i'm going to be honest: they're not.
they've got better production, craftmanship, more appeal in the light of today's tastes, great songwriting, an abundance of intelligent concepts and realization, but do they have a whole new range of song ideas? they don't.

that's it, i'd like to hear your opinion on if/when/why bands and artists' tide of creativity ever ebbs.

rahvin.
 
well pal, there's a too wide range of bands out there and of course there are exceptions, but well creativity when a band is already fine not always becomes a key to good music (i.e. metallica, even if one could think it was a simple sell out, i mostly think they wanted to do something new, which was of course worse than their previous stuff)

but other bands for example, this guy, Devin Townsend, has a wonderful and greatly creative progression.

But once again, it all depends from the listener. To me, it's not understandable that somebody could find good the new Manowar album (and I quite liked the previous) since it's nothing more than a cheap copy of their previous works, but it seems there's some people thinking that Manowar have just reinvented metal :err: and find the new album cool.

So 80% I agree with you, but I really think creativity as a whole is not what i want from a band...i rather try another music style (such as Mana) than wanting to hear DT playing popish just to be creative...

fathervic (i hate this screen)
 
@ Rahvin: I've thought of that often myself, so it's quite funny you should mention it. :) I totally agree, and I've always thought In Flames is a perfect example of it. Especially Clay Man is IMO quite dull and mediocre when it comes to creativity. And I never liked the "switch your brain off and bounce" -kinda music. (Nothing wrong with bouncing with the brain on, though.)

-Lamia
 
i agree with this as a general pattern BUT i though clay man had new ground and a couple of very quality songs.

i think the new opeth is pretty boring for opeth, even though deliverance and fair judgement are awesome songs.

also, sometimes the boringness of the new music is somewhat compensated for by the improved production and musicianship. i think this is the case for shadows fall. they are from near where i live, so i have seen them play for 6 years. i hate to admit it, but seriously, since they first were pushing their tape demo around, i think their actual songs have become less and less memorable and hard-hitting, even though as players they get better and better, and thank god they havent put out another rap-metal verse since that first one... :lol:
 
well,i think innovation is not what we judge an album from.
haven remains within my favourite albums,as all dt releases.in fact i find it similar to skydancer,in the sense that the songs have the same pattern from start to finish,but its a good blend in both occasions.
i can tell you i find dd a bit boring and too much sometimes,but then i cant skip the great songs it has in.
eg.rundown reminds you of anything previously released?emptier still?haven songs have a mere freshness if you ask me.

innovation is good when you start repeating yes.and i liked R2R for this.the stoner sound,the variety and all,i think it worked.(i couldnt not single that out):)
 
I think you have a point rahvin. However, I would say that things were starting to go wrong on Projector. Henrikssons cool bassmelodies were almost completely gone, or at least simplified. Most songs had a simple pattern (with verses and choruses and stuff...)

I think Projector, Haven and Damage done seem like they didn't take as much time to write as the rest of the albums, but IMO are just as interesting to listen to.

Hmm.. I kinda forgot what I was trying to say.. so forgive me if I strayed off topic. I tend to do that sometimes :D
 
Originally posted by rahvin
that's it, i'd like to hear your opinion on if/when/why bands and artists' tide of creativity ever ebbs.

rahvin.
Quite honestly, I believe it's when an artist stops letting themselves suffer. The art of suffering - the suffering makes the art, etc etc etc. It seems that a minor portion of excess would spur an artist to:
A. repeat the winning forumla over and over again
B. forget how to create one.

Seems that dreams are set too small for musicians. Once that minor success is gained, the dream is over.

I'd be able to define this better if I didn't have such a headache :)
 
i dont think its the suffering, especially in the case of underground music. i think its just maturity and experience. playing music becomes less new. even as you gain technical proficiency or whatever. you also might become more cautious. and, yes, maybe you used up some of your best ideas already. for some people creativity is unavoidable and they are just boiling over with things to express, but for others, creating is always a struggle. like how some writers just write all the time, but others have to deal with "blocks."
 
Well I think that musicians like writers can run out of something to say or how to express it,unless theu write about human nature or feelings(which as we all know are an endless source) or politics(which keep changing)
 
One notable exception to the rule is Katatonia I think. Each of their albums has been incredibly creative. It's quite an achievement to make five albums without hitting a creative stand still. Whether Viva Emptiness follows through is to be seen.
 
I bu to differ. The REAL good bands or artists (and no, not "REAL" as in true metal, real as part of "real good") have different stages of shine, maybe interpersed with moments of decline. And you small bastard, you knew that i would open this thread only because I thought you were mentioning the eponymous SONG by Nofx. :lol:
Take Bad Religion. I reckon No Control's my favorite because it was really influential on me as a teen, but I know that the latest one is, in absolute worth, as good as any of my most loved ones from the 1988-1994 period. Take Manowar: their first eight thousand records were idiotic, then they put out Kings of Metal, and then they went on with brilliant efforts until the latest one, which is a fall, but I don't know whether it's temporary or permanent. I think you get this impression of monotonic (not monotonous, mind you) evolution after some acme just because when one has been listening to the same old band for a lot of time it is easy to lose interest and redirect towards something that is not really better, maybe just fresher. Most great artists are up-and-down stuff: think of Snuff, Nofx themselves, not to mention Eminem who is just getting better by the minute and won't ever come down. :)

h
 
@rahvin:
I see seamen (Funniest thing I´ve ever said) of truth there.

But some bands have still after 10 years their touch when it comes to compose total shit.
 
Assuming the redundance risks, I'm gonna take you out from this doubt, Rahvin. (Add a note of pride while saying that). I like to consider myself as an enthusiastic music lover, in a wide range of styles, and it has rained a couple of times since I started the dark path of music to become the mastah I am. :p

You're talking about quality, but what's actually the state of quality? It's just an appreciation, a judgement about something. Hyena likes "The Process Of Believe" and I think its short and rapid shoots are lifeless shadows of what Bad Religion did in the past. That means that I find a lack of quality, instead of the brilliant worthy album Hyena talked about. ¿A general agreement in a judgement? ¿Is that what set a statical numeric value to a (supposed) piece of art?

On the other hand, you're talking about the widely known over-exploded persian market massively controlled. The quality is linked to the sells under a savage control, (that explains how Hammerfall is still living from a couple of songs following the Helloween's worth style), and the sells don't necessarily demand quality. Even if you're the charismatic leader of a pretty successful band, how much time will you resist the pressure over you? How much time will you keep your interest for music and how much time will you spend in something you don't actually need to keep your sells? I'm sure Niklas and the guys invest time and energies doing their best, but they have a family to care about, and a lot of things in mind that requires a time that a long tour, promotions, recordings and that stuff probably steal. And I don't need to talk about contractual clauses that enforces you to record an album-per-year, no matter if the inspiration is hanging around or not...

In conclusion, as in life, there are ups and downs, and imo, that's right,because after a not that good album (Piece Of Mind,1983, i.e), a band can claim its revenge improving in a more ellaborated work (Powerslave, 1984).There are legendary bands (Rush?) that after years in silence comes up with very decent works, and some others whose luck finally ends and merciless onslaught them.

In any case, it's a matter of tastes, because there you can see those In Flames fans defending their honor even in the reroute to remain. ;) And imo, "Fear Of The Dark" (1992) and "Seventh Son..." (1987) are two of the best heavy metal albums ever, and the Maiden's career started ten years before.


|ngenius (Without taste at all)
 
And imo, "Fear Of The Dark" (1992) and "Seventh Son..." (1987) are two of the best heavy metal albums ever, and the Maiden's career started ten years before.

Now there will always be deviations from the general opinion of the fans, which is basically that "Fear of the Dark" sucked. People will tell you that "Brave New World" is their best album too... BUT what rahvin is saying is that bands stop being innovative after some time. For 'Maiden, when they released FoTD, all they were doing were tired rehashes of the style they pioneered 10 years ago. Even if it's for some twisted reason your favourite album, there's just no denying that.


Anyway.

The bands rahvin discusses here as examples (In Flames, Iron Maiden, Dark Tranquillity) are all bands who have reached major success within their fields -- you might argue that DT is not a "well-known" band but anyone into this kind of music WILL have heard of them. Opeth's currently in a similar situation.

When people start up a new band, they are most often rather young and full of youthful enthusiasm, influences from their favourite bands and hopes to achieve the same kind of recognition. They will work hard, they will have a strong vision of what they want to do musically and lyrically (see the lyrics to "Trail Of Life Decayed", "A Moonclad Reflection", "Skydancer": possibly not BETTER than the newer DT lyrics, but certainly more ambitious, some'd say pretentious... Nevertheless a good example of the enthusiasm a young band has,) send out zillions of tapes and flyers all around the world and eventually (maybe) reach the point where they've released several albums, made long tours and pretty much done what they originally wanted to do with the band -- this is their so-called "creative peak" and is what occured around "The Mind's I"/"Projector", "The Jester Race" etc. One, as a listener and/or fan, could argue that they might as well dissolve the band at that point and leave behind a flawless (?) legacy.

However, the band will want to continue doing what they're doing as they think it's fun and as it's become such a large part of their lives that they don't want to part with it. This is the point where they feel they can start to experiment carelessly with the songwriting or just rehash what they've been doing for the last couple of albums. Being pretty much at the top of their game, they needn't innovate or prove anything to the world anymore, and can do basically what they want -- sometimes that's selling out (Metallica).

I'd like to argue that the above does not really happen with bands that stay underground, bands that from the very start have no desire (or no resources) to become a large band. See Runemagick or Negura Bunget: bands few have heard about, but who have for several years written and released albums that just get better and more innovative with each release. (according to... most) Bands that want to stay underground (Runemagick switched from Century Media to Aftermath Music, a very small Norwegian label) have nothing to prove to anyone and are free to do as they wish, which often results in better music throughout their career. There are little in the way of tours to miss, fans to disappoint or money to lose by terminating the band at any given point.

Hope that wasn't all too incoherent and/or redundant.
 
That was... just what I said. I mean, regardless your opinion about Fear Of The Dark, it's a matter of tastes. I don't know so many Maiden fans whose opinion is that the album sucked, neither that Brave New World is the best album ever (in my opinion, it's not a brilliant masterpiece, but there are good songs. But consider that I am a huge Maiden fan). That's why I asked about the real meaning for "quality", because imo it's a subjective thing based on our personal judgement scale.

Examples? There are tones of them, either according with Rahvin's "theory" or rejecting the mere idea of a preposterous progression in a musical career. Take Dream Theater, whose career started with entangled albums without the quality they reached a couple of years ago with Metropolis Part II, but of course that's my opinion and what the reviews say. True? False? Who knows?

Underground bands. They use to fight for the fame, and some talented musicians come up with great albums due to the lack of pressure. It's easier to summon the inspiration when a fat man dressed as a penguin don't push you to record compulsively, isn't it? ;) Some other "musicians" not that skilled, will remain into the darkness of the underground world, or perhaps they will become pop stars.


|ngenius (Not skilled)
 
Interessting thread Rahvin!

I agree with you, but my opinion is that maybe a band which has being going strong for so long time dries empty with ideas. Dark Tranquillity is getting better for every album according to my opinion but I don't think you can keep up with the pressure of making all kinds of riffs/melodies/solos with a big variation all the time. For me DT tried something different with Projector and Haven and it succeded. In Flames has been going strong for a long time and just as Anders said in an interview they wanted to do something completely different with the release of R2R. Maybe because of the lack of ideas, or maybe something else. Who really knows?

I guess it's in the eye of the beholder...
 
it seems to me phyre got to the core of the problem the way i'm seeing it.
it's not about how good fear of the dark or brave new world actually are. and yes, i know there's bands that keep on putting out records that are better and better under a lot of aspects.

i'm not saying creativity = quality either.
what i'm saying is the vast majority of a band's releases taking place after some personal moment of maturity tend to be far less creative than their previous works.

so, i think i've outgrown "no control" too, and "the process of belief" is more in tune with my mind as it is now, yet i think bad religion's best shot in terms of conceptual and musical creativity have been fired around 1989. ok, so they've had a pretty long "high" moment, lasting until about 1994. still there is no reprise of new ideas once you've used the ones you have from the start. it might take you some time to get to the correct exploitation of said ideas, but once you're there you can only improve in terms of rendition and accuracy. basically, you said what you had to say.

i can't talk about the bands phyre mentioned as examples of the underground: needless to say, i haven't heard of any of them before. :) but i'm ready to check out any band you're going to tell me behaved differently and tell you my honest opinion about it. maybe my theory is gonna crumble to dust: i'm not exceptionally satisfied with it anyway. ;)

rahvin.
 
Originally posted by |ngenius


and some talented musicians come up with great albums due to the lack of pressure. It's easier to summon the inspiration when a fat man dressed as a penguin don't push you to record compulsively, isn't it? ;)


[/B]

My thoughts exactly. Somehow I think the creative juices get sucked dry when the pressure of a record company is in the picture. A sense of "innocence" is lost perhaps? When you are young, you've got no fear, no inhibitions. You don't necessarily care what people think about your art. It's yours and you will do what you want with it. I can't tell you how many times you hear on the radio or on television or even read in an article about artists that had great success with an album and then feel so pressured and scared to follow it up with another masterpiece...they are jaded and tainted with having the presence of others judging them (record companies along with fans).

As for bands that are in the game for the long haul...I dunno...we can name bands like Aerosmith and the Rolling Stones or even Madonna...believe it or not kiddies...Madonna has been in the limelight for over 20 years already (this makes me feel old, hehe). Despite a few acting travesties, she really hasn't bombed musically. I think the key is to constantly reinvent yourself, like she has. The demise of a lot of bands is going back to what is comfortable, what's safe and what has worked before.

Just my two cents.

:)
 
@shadowlioness: yes... and no. ;) of course production or public pressure can do a lot to undermine somebody's spontaneous efforts... yet i see "the decline" as a built-in character of every artist. it's a bit like we started with a numbered quantity of new things to say, and when we've expressed them somehow there isn't much more to add except craftmanship, talent, good vibes and memories.
of course madonna likely didn't put out any real crap yet, and maybe she never will. still i feel it's safe to say that once "into the groove" and "true blue" were recorded, the rest is nothing more than the work of a scholar. the latter stuff is diverse, granted, but i can't help remembering the first time i've heard "frozen" noticing how the exact same synths appeared 6 months before on paradise lost's "one second"... :D

rahvin.