The Loudness War

[schwinginbatman]

I sit here, listening to masters like that, just thinking, "How can they not hear the lack of dynamics?" A heavy part comes in, and if it doesn't hit me in the chest every time I hear it, something is wrong. It's possible to get great mixes that are loud, Sneap's mixes are plenty loud and heavy as fvck. I swear, Metallica lives in a bubble where Death Magnetic is the only album ever if they think it sounds good.

 

[Arsenu,]

I sit here, listening to masters like that, just thinking, "How can they not hear the lack of dynamics?" A heavy part comes in, and if it doesn't hit me in the chest every time I hear it, something is wrong. It's possible to get great mixes that are loud, Sneap's mixes are plenty loud and heavy as fvck.

my point. when i listen to unmastered tracks from my album i really start questioning if the whole process is still necessary. if the mixes are as loud as a they are these days than why bother? and if you do bother, why maximize/compress-the-fuck out of it? it fits some genres but it sounds bad in the long run on anything that's not MTV and CORE...

I swear, Metallica lives in a bubble where Death Magnetic is the only album ever if they think it sounds good.

don't poke me on my metallica spot
DM's loudness had nothing to do with the band itself and sounds great on stage.

no more metallica comments on this thread. period.

 

[Melb_shredder]

my point. when i listen to unmastered tracks from my album i really start questioning if the whole process is still necessary. if the mixes are as loud as a they are these days than why bother? and if you do bother, why maximize/compress-the-fuck out of it? it fits some genres but it sounds bad in the long run on anything that's not MTV and CORE...




don't poke me on my metallica spot
DM's loudness had nothing to do with the band itself and sounds great on stage.

no more metallica comments on this thread. period.

Why bother Mastering do you mean??? Unless you can confidently say you have 100% objectivity on your own mixes and see it from an outside perspective, then I still think it's plenty necessary.

I've mixed some stuff that I just either couldn't hear any necessary changes or couldn't make them myself. After having them sent back from mastering almost all have had that SHEEN applied which has added just that extra oomf and cleansing to the tracks that I wasn't capable of

 

[RedDog]

Where's the dude with the sig, "loudness is pretty metal, and war is pretty metal... As far as I'm concerned, a loudness war would be pretty metal." That sure cracks me up.

Dunno man, ask fletcher and munson see what they think about this shit. I want the BOOM!

 

[Arsenu,]

^ hilarious sig indeed!

Why bother Mastering do you mean??? Unless you can confidently say you have 100% objectivity on your own mixes and see it from an outside perspective, then I still think it's plenty necessary.

I've mixed some stuff that I just either couldn't hear any necessary changes or couldn't make them myself. After having them sent back from mastering almost all have had that SHEEN applied which has added just that extra oomf and cleansing to the tracks that I wasn't capable of

so what you're suggesting is that the only reason to get a tracked mastered is to get an objective opinion? than why not send the project for a second mix done by an engineer who was not involved in the process?

i KNOW how much better a track sounds after mastering, and obviously if you don't squeeze the comp. threshold knob to it's limit you can preserve the dynamics, question is if it's possible to achieve the same results by treating the tracks separately during the mix stage, eliminating the necessity to process the final stereo export track?

(kind of like asking if you can achieve the same results while mixing drums without using a buss track for the whole kit in a way...)

 

[Plankis]

I don't have a big problem if it is loud, if I don't hear any clipping I'm satisfied. It annoys me more if it's loud all the way through songs, even if I listen in my car that is a lot less than ideal listening place.

I'm a big fan of the Inception soundtrack so I'm going to use it as an example. The macrodynamics in it is enormous.
Let's compare Inception's Time to Vicousheads song in his signature for example, there is a clean part in his song so it's possible to do a rough comparison.
The great thing about soundcloud is that you can see the soundwave, excellent for educational purpose.

theviciousheadsociety - Abject Onion
[SOUNDCLOUD]http://soundcloud.com/theviciousheadsociety/abject-onion#new-timed-comment-at-85890
[/SOUNDCLOUD]There's a transition between clean and heavy around 2:00 min. Yet it's hardly felt or seen, I'd argue it feels less metal there than on the clean part. Strange isn't it?
I wont bother analyze a mp3 so no numbers here.
Vicioushead might argue it is unfinished but it's a typical example of many of the sound clips I listen to in the Rate my mix-section and some professional releases as well so it it's nothing uncommon.

Inception - Time

Here it's obvious that shit gets louder and louder AND LOUDER. I always find the part just before 3:00 min LOUD than heads explodes on the final repeat after 3:00.

I did a quick look on some key parts of Time:
First part, 0:00 - 0:30, the dBfs meter floats around -24 dBfs.
The middle part gets louder and louder until it reaches the final part at 3:00, here the dBfs meter floats around -3 dBfs.
The whole song has a RMS of about -15 dBfs.
(Method: Reaper -> Time.flac-> Voxengo SPAN, freq. analyzer)

That is a difference of 21 dbFs. Pretty crazy numbers, at least if you come from the rock scene, and that is a big reason why the song is so damn epic. The albums loudest parts are around -9 RMS so it's still close to other modern productions too.

 

[Arsenu,]

I don't have a big problem if it is loud, if I don't hear any clipping I'm satisfied. It annoys me more if it's loud all the way through songs, even if I listen in my car that is a lot less than ideal listening place.

I'm a big fan of the Inception soundtrack so I'm going to use it as an example. The macrodynamics in it is enormous.
Let's compare Inception's Time to Vicousheads song in his signature for example, there is a clean part in his song so it's possible to do a rough comparison.
The great thing about soundcloud is that you can see the soundwave, excellent for educational purpose.

theviciousheadsociety - Abject Onion
[SOUNDCLOUD]http://soundcloud.com/theviciousheadsociety/abject-onion#new-timed-comment-at-85890
[/SOUNDCLOUD]There's a transition between clean and heavy around 2:00 min. Yet it's hardly felt or seen, I'd argue it feels less metal there than on the clean part. Strange isn't it?
I wont bother analyze a mp3 so no numbers here.
Vicioushead might argue it is unfinished but it's a typical example of many of the sound clips I listen to in the Rate my mix-section and some professional releases as well so it it's nothing uncommon.

Inception - Time

Here it's obvious that shit gets louder and louder AND LOUDER. I always find the part just before 3:00 min LOUD than heads explodes on the final repeat after 3:00.

I did a quick look on some key parts of Time:
First part, 0:00 - 0:30, the dBfs meter floats around -24 dBfs.
The middle part gets louder and louder until it reaches the final part at 3:00, here the dBfs meter floats around -3 dBfs.
The whole song has a RMS of about -15 dBfs.
(Method: Reaper -> Time.flac-> Voxengo SPAN, freq. analyzer)

That is a difference of 21 dbFs. Pretty crazy numbers, at least if you come from the rock scene, and that is a big reason why the song is so damn epic. The albums loudest parts are around -9 RMS so it's still close to other modern productions too.

* automate maximizer's gain on next production... check!

 

[Plankis]

* automate maximizer's gain on next production... check!

lol, yeah pretty much. :Smug: But you usually get better results automating in the mixing stage.

 

[Arsenu,]

^ tried that. since the the mastering compressor is usually so brutal, volume changes during mixing become irrelevant.
even HP and LP the shit out a track (and automating a bypass later) doesn't affect THAT much

 

[Vicioushead]

I don't have a big problem if it is loud, if I don't hear any clipping I'm satisfied. It annoys me more if it's loud all the way through songs, even if I listen in my car that is a lot less than ideal listening place.

I'm a big fan of the Inception soundtrack so I'm going to use it as an example. The macrodynamics in it is enormous.
Let's compare Inception's Time to Vicousheads song in his signature for example, there is a clean part in his song so it's possible to do a rough comparison.
The great thing about soundcloud is that you can see the soundwave, excellent for educational purpose.

theviciousheadsociety - Abject Onion
[SOUNDCLOUD]http://soundcloud.com/theviciousheadsociety/abject-onion#new-timed-comment-at-85890
[/SOUNDCLOUD]There's a transition between clean and heavy around 2:00 min. Yet it's hardly felt or seen, I'd argue it feels less metal there than on the clean part. Strange isn't it?
I wont bother analyze a mp3 so no numbers here.
Vicioushead might argue it is unfinished but it's a typical example of many of the sound clips I listen to in the Rate my mix-section and some professional releases as well so it it's nothing uncommon.

Inception - Time

Here it's obvious that shit gets louder and louder AND LOUDER. I always find the part just before 3:00 min LOUD than heads explodes on the final repeat after 3:00.

I did a quick look on some key parts of Time:
First part, 0:00 - 0:30, the dBfs meter floats around -24 dBfs.
The middle part gets louder and louder until it reaches the final part at 3:00, here the dBfs meter floats around -3 dBfs.
The whole song has a RMS of about -15 dBfs.
(Method: Reaper -> Time.flac-> Voxengo SPAN, freq. analyzer)

That is a difference of 21 dbFs. Pretty crazy numbers, at least if you come from the rock scene, and that is a big reason why the song is so damn epic. The albums loudest parts are around -9 RMS so it's still close to other modern productions too.

To be fair, it IS unfinished. I did literally nothing to it. Just recorded and bounced. Also, I'm a massive noob It does illustrate the problem very well though. I'd like to learn more about the approach you have outlined. I will keep reading and learning. Thanks for the reply.