The Mix Amelioration

[Ermz]

'scuse the wanky title. This is for you guys that have been at it for a while.

Mixing day in and out for a living can make one quite appreciative of 'good songwriting'. Now, I know at its heart the term is subjective, and when out of context, entirely unqualified. However, as a mix engineer you learn to appreciate compositions that mix themselves. Good songwriting will normally create its own lulls, crescendos and cadences - providing natural rhythmic, harmonic and thematic transitions which feel effortless. You can generally tell when songwriting has not been well thought out when there are a myriad of elements clashing harmonically, and making your life a living hell to balance. Another dead give away is abrupt progressions between song sections - let's say, by making every transition a disjointed breakdown which requires production gimmickry to sound like a cohesive piece.

I'm curious - how many of you guys that mix regularly have had your taste in music, and appreciation for composition, actively changed by what you do? It happened to me not long ago, and it's hard to believe it would be an isolated phenomena.

It's much easier for me to appreciate this 'effortless songwriting' across a variety of genres, as opposed to years past when I had a very specific idea of which aesthetic was right. It feels like a very positive change on the whole, which leaves me wondering how many of you are presently in the same boat.

 

[JeffTD]

I'm pretty convinced that getting into production is what made me slowly grow to hate most metal for this very reason.

*edit* I should also mention that it's made me appreciate what I used to think of as 'simpler' music far more than I ever thought possible, especially in pop-music contexts.

 

[XnaySaturo]

Great topic! It's something I've actually been thinking about a lot recently. The conclusion I've come up with is that I appreciate the same music MORE, because I know it "works". I just know the reasons why I like it now. Before, it was more of a subconscious thing, but it's becoming easier and easier to rationalize, if that makes any sense.

 

[Ermz]

*edit* I should also mention that it's made me appreciate what I used to think of as 'simpler' music far more than I ever thought possible, especially in pop-music contexts.

Definitely feeling this.

I used to think that 'progressive' music was a sign of a more enlightened artist in the past. These days it often strikes me as being indecisive, chaotic and in many cases uncommunicative. When music gets overly contrived it appears to stop communicating anything other than the artist's own self indulgence, and furthermore fosters superiority complexes within the fanbase. People who have to continuously justify to themselves why they like it, and for what reasons its superior to everything else. That, to me, isn't an ideal basis for the appreciation of art.

Above all, I suppose what all this workload has done is make it blatantly obvious when an artist is satisfying an ego over communicating genuine feelings or ideas.

A good example for me is Decapitated's latest record. There are a lot of passages within it that consist of a single clean guitar, or solo guitar just noodling or diddling along - no layering, no real development - just sort of 'hanging' in place. In the past I would have outright dismissed this as lazy songwriting. However, these days I think about the circumstances that led the songwriter to feel the need to write a section like that. I think of the sort of inner desolation that one could have felt in order to communicate such a sparse and 'hopeless' feeling part. Ultimately, there is valid communication in simplicity, and oft times it's the most beautiful avenue for it.

Think of the analogue in writing. Talented writers can summarize in one sentence what takes others an entire essay to communicate. Ironically, you can see I don't fall into the former bracket.

 

[Scott Horner]

I'm pretty convinced that getting into production is what made me slowly grow to hate most metal for this very reason.

*edit* I should also mention that it's made me appreciate what I used to think of as 'simpler' music far more than I ever thought possible, especially in pop-music contexts.

This is pretty accurate.

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

'scuse the wanky title. This is for you guys that have been at it for a while.

Mixing day in and out for a living can make one quite appreciative of 'good songwriting'. Now, I know at its heart the term is subjective, and when out of context, entirely unqualified. However, as a mix engineer you learn to appreciate compositions that mix themselves. Good songwriting will normally create its own lulls, crescendos and cadences - providing natural rhythmic, harmonic and thematic transitions which feel effortless. You can generally tell when songwriting has not been well thought out when there are a myriad of elements clashing harmonically, and making your life a living hell to balance. Another dead give away is abrupt progressions between song sections - let's say, by making every transition a disjointed breakdown which requires production gimmickry to sound like a cohesive piece.

Yup. I've learned to recognize a song that just can't be taken where I'd like it to go. A good song - even a decent one - is usually finished (mix-wise) without me even realizing I'm actually working on it. I'm just nodding my head, doing what feels natural to me and suddenly I realize it's done. I don't care about the genre I work with anymore, a good song is a good song and always an absolute joy to sculpt sonically.

I'm curious - how many of you guys that mix regularly have had your taste in music, and appreciation for composition, actively changed by what you do? It happened to me not long ago, and it's hard to believe it would be an isolated phenomena.

Absolutely. I've noticed I rarely listen to metal these days, least of all the fast, aggressive, cookie-cutter stuff I used to love as a teenager. Whenever I feel like actually listening to something, I usually pop in stuff like Johnny Cash, John Martyn, Norah Jones, Faith No More, Paleface (an absolutely genius Finnish hip hop/rap artist), Down, Audioslave and yes, even Nickelback. Generaly well-produced, naturally flowing stuff with compositional details that catch my attention. Still love working with metal though!

 

[Harry Hughes]

While I'm not a professional audio engineer by any means, the whole topic of arrangement, song writing and bands refusing to use an outside producer is just one of those topics I could write entire essays on.
Might be a bit of a long read, but bear with me if you can.

Everyone and their dog is producing their own stuff now, but unfortunately most of these guys don't have a single fucking clue what the PRODUCTION process is about. Maybe every one in 1 000 000 bands have a clue how to self produce, if that.
Dream Theater from 2000 onward is a good example of the end result not understanding what production is about.
They have a ton of 10+ minute long songs that sound like a bunch of 3-4 minute long unfinished songs tacked together to call one big 'song'.
There's just a ton of random, noodly instrumental sections that have absolutely no place in the music what so ever.
I'd go so far as to say all that had its beginnings with the track The Dance of Eternity. It's basically just 6 minutes of " hey guize, Let's see how many time signature changes and musical ideas we can throw into one song".
Painfully bad transitions from idea to idea and just terrible sounding noodling thrown at random intervals in for good measure.
You can almost trace the entire slow, painful downfall of that style of prog metal from that one song.
I'm utterly convinced this style of music is aimed at 13-14 prog nerd kids that get off to prog metal that's just ridiculously over the top in the worst ways possible.
10 minute+ long songs with zero song writing focus and direction, horrible transitions from section to section and at least several guitar and keyboard solos that add nothing musically to the song is the sound the kids want it seems.

More on the topic of arrangement now.
You spend enough time listening to double/quad tracked guitars and multiple tracks of bass in mixes and you don't have to be a genius to understand that's a VERY DENSE sound as it is in a mix. Tons of sonic space already gone right there.
Add in the vocals and drums and there isn't really a whole lot of room left.
Unfortunately, this is a concept that's very much lost on a lot of today's generation of prog metal bands, and basically every modern 'djent' band ever.

So many bands/artists just add a bazillion layers of thing into their music and by the time the mixing engineer has mixed it (assuming he finished the job and didn't commit suicide halfway through the job out of sheer anger), what's left is a lifeless, washed out and dull sound.
There's so many layers/tracks of stuff that nothing has the room to breathe anymore and you need to make every little element so small sounding just to give anything in the mix a chance of being heard.
The excess layers also has the effect of making the song writing sound less focused. There's so much stuff going on, that it just sounds like a mish mash of sounds put together.
Devin Townsend's most recent album (although other stuff his done is guilty of it) and basically every djent record is a good example of this.

So much of modern heavy metal has just become a total pissing match of who can play the fastest, who can add the most layers to their songs and write the most uselessly complex music and quite frankly I can't listen to most of it anymore because of this.
There's not enough outside producers to tell these bands to keep their ego in check, to trim the fat and think more carefully about what they're doing before they commit to record the ideas

 

[::XeS::]

It happened to me.........unfortunately, only 1 time.
Musicians actually are a bunch of cocksuckers that should work in a mine (at least a good 85%).

 

[mva801]

Above all, I suppose what all this workload has done is make it blatantly obvious when an artist is satisfying an ego over communicating genuine feelings or ideas.

A good example for me is Decapitated's latest record. There are a lot of passages within it that consist of a single clean guitar, or solo guitar just noodling or diddling along - no layering, no real development - just sort of 'hanging' in place. In the past I would have outright dismissed this as lazy songwriting. However, these days I think about the circumstances that led the songwriter to feel the need to write a section like that. I think of the sort of inner desolation that one could have felt in order to communicate such a sparse and 'hopeless' feeling part. Ultimately, there is valid communication in simplicity, and oft times it's the most beautiful avenue for it.

Think of the analogue in writing. Talented writers can summarize in one sentence what takes others an entire essay to communicate. Ironically, you can see I don't fall into the former bracket.

I agree completely. This is one of the main reasons I've strayed from listening to so much generic metal into other stuff.

I've been working on a country record for the last three weeks. Although it's something I wouldn't buy per say, it's refreshing to work on because of the cohesive songwriting and the general awesome musicianship of the band. I've never seen a metal band with 5 people in it who can SING and write 4 part harmonies on the fly.

 

[26]

Ironically, you can see I don't fall into the former bracket.

you are damn close, if i'm allowed to say this. also....in the language music you chose to be the lector, so more words are required.
great posts.

 

[Sacha]

Writing a lot of songs also helps you get an appreciation for song writing...

and I still like Metal. :Spin:

I TOTALLY agree with you that good arrangement obviates the need for a lot of mix trickery

 

[Mago]

I think I had the same kind of "enlightment", but through a different story (altho I can relate to what you mean during the mixing progress and how you'd maybe need to "spice up" things):

A friend of mine does write songs and plays a bit of guitar, so she's kind of a singer/songwriter for a good couple of years. Recently she met a producer through her work, and it got to a
pretty damn good (imo) collaboration. Through her and listening to her stuff I concentrated more on what is behind the, what I thought would be "easier", pop-ish music and I was amazed how
she could make an awesome song with just a few chords and her voice. I don't think I can write stuff that can last worth a song with only ONE guitar and voice, but she manages to make douzens of awesome songs with that.
It really just depends on the core of what is behind the music to make it work.
And the problem of repentity is the same you have with more "complex" music, if you go overboard with that it gets "random".

I think it's possible to write stuff that is awesome with only a few tracks, or stuff that is big with lots of layers and things to explore, but both things are equally "hard" to get right and good.
The later one is harder to mix without a doubt though

 

[pikachu69]

I totaly agree with all of this.
I have always enjoyed almost every style of music but none more passionately than metal, until I discovered this website and discovered how it is mostly recorded, these days at least. lol.

I do FOH sound for a major reggae band here in New Zealand. The band has 8 members, drums, bass, 2 guitars (sometimes 3), sax, 2 keys players each with 2 keys and sometimes up to 4 lead singers plus a backing track including 'colour' harmony stuff and the click for the drummer.
I usually use at least 32 channels to mix their sound and yet with all of this going on it NEVER sounds congested. Everyone plays their part, nothing overly flash in its own right but when it is all mixed together it sounds like a well thought out arrangement and each players part complememts the next.
It is a joy to listen to and no matter how often you listen to it you can always hear something you didn't hear last time.
It is a revelation compared to most metal you hear these days.
I still love metal don't get me wrong but I appreciate a good musical performance that requires little to no studio trickery and clever song writing more.

 

[Charles J]

EXACT same thing happened to me during the Martyrs mix. The songs were SO well written and SO fucking well arranged that my mind was just blowing.

Totally got me into Dimmu and more symphonic, huge blackened death metal, believe it or not.

i used to HATE strings and grands in metal before mixing that record.

great point to bring up. i'm ALL ABOUT the song now. BTM really opened my eyes...

 

[AEL89]

Good songs need no special mix/production - they just come together. I'd like to add that the most important thing I've learned from engineering, mixing and producing is how important it is to serve what the song wants to be. There's a million producers out there who all think the only way to improve a song is to trim it down, take out sections and simplify it to a few chords and a big chorus. This can be the most fatal downfall sometimes. Having said that - sometimes it can be the best thing to do.

I've noticed that even kids in bands can write some amazing stuff - they just need a little guidance, usually with the dynamics of a song. If you can nail the transitions and dynamics of a song then you're on the right path to a great track - it just has to feel natural. All about the vibe (maaaaan).

That Emmure album Joey Sturgis produced is a prime example of bad song writing. 0 dynamics and the most FUCKED transitions I've ever heard. Compare that to Dark Side of the Moon - a whole album that is crafted perfectly into a single movement of music with seemless transitions and perfectly thought out dynamics. It feels right. Its almost like it came out like that the first time they played it - so effortless.

 

[dcb]

being an engineer and songwriter, i feel exactly the same.
2 years ago i announced our upcoming album and i said : its gonna be mooore technical than anything we've ever done.

halfway through, i find myself writing simple pop songs, that express a lot more (to most people ive shown our new stuff)
than any 7 minute long progressive boring song we ever made...

i guess its important for an artist to find out what you are good at. if its writing great choruses, dont write technical riffs.
being the singer in my band, i have learned in the last years that every song benefits from writing lyrics first,
then composing your song around that. it helps focusing on the core of the song, and thats usually
a feeling.

indeed i too hate bands writing meshuggah riffs, with tons of layers over that.

bands underestimate the power of a strong melody....

on the other hand, a lot of artists in pop id love to hear more creativity.

i loved (hate me for that) britneys last record. the vocals glitches in the choruses of some songs
are just really cool and make her songs exciting (to me). or the little dubstep part in hold it against me.

id rather listen to great pop music with some twists and a few cool ideas,
than overladen djent djent djent with millions of ideas but no feel and focus.

 

[Fifth_Horseman]

Recording and mixing always brings out the flaws in the most merciless way, be it bad playing or bad songwriting. IMO that's also the reason why preproductions are so useful.

A good example for me is Decapitated's latest record. There are a lot of passages within it that consist of a single clean guitar, or solo guitar just noodling or diddling along - no layering, no real development - just sort of 'hanging' in place. In the past I would have outright dismissed this as lazy songwriting. However, these days I think about the circumstances that led the songwriter to feel the need to write a section like that. I think of the sort of inner desolation that one could have felt in order to communicate such a sparse and 'hopeless' feeling part. Ultimately, there is valid communication in simplicity, and oft times it's the most beautiful avenue for it.

Good example. Thinking of this album, I listened to "Silence" out of context on Youtube before the album arrived. I thought it was boring and useless.
Then when the CD arrived I listened to the entire album and when the song came on, it totally clicked and made perfect sense. There's something totally different about hearing it alone, or hearing it after over half an hour of menacing death metal.

 

[HANIAK]

I don't want to sound like an arrogant shit head, but I always thought the songwriting is the most important factor for an artist/band.
I mean, I can surely tolerate bad/inferior production if the songwriting (and performance) is really good, but I don't remember of the opposite happening...
I'm not talking about having an awesome riff "glued" to another. In my opinion, one of the most important things in songwriting is song arrangement. That's where you usually can make a distinction between the good and the greatest.

And then you have the album context. If good songwriting is hard, making an album sound like a whole piece (instead of a group of songs or instead of the same exercise over and over again) is something even harder!

Oh, and I totally agree on the technical versus simpler ideas/songs. Sometimes keeping it simple is what really makes it.

In the end, having good and different ideas is what really counts!

 

[Djabthrash]

Good example. Thinking of this album, I listened to "Silence" out of context on Youtube before the album arrived. I thought it was boring and useless.
Then when the CD arrived I listened to the entire album and when the song came on, it totally clicked and made perfect sense. There's something totally different about hearing it alone, or hearing it after over half an hour of menacing death metal.

+1 to that

Actually that happens a lot when you hear preview songs of one album... you feel a bit "meh" when hearing the song on its own, but when you listen to the full album it starts to make perfect sense.

This happened to me with the new Incubus, and the new Earth Crisis as well.
Now i can also enjoy the songs by themselves, but to me they shine at their best when i listen to the whole album (which i do 99% of the time when listening to music anyway).

Great posts here by the way (about good music mixing itself).

The best example being listening to a good song through guitar pro (which has a shitty sound). If you're bobbing your head to the guitar pro version, it means the finished "mixed" production is gonna be HUGE.

 

[Djabthrash]

I don't want to sound like an arrogant shit head, but I always thought the songwriting is the most important factor for an artist/band.
I mean, I can surely tolerate bad/inferior production if the songwriting (and performance) is really good, but I don't remember of the opposite happening...
I'm not talking about having an awesome riff "glued" to another. In my opinion, one of the most important things in songwriting is song arrangement. That's where you usually can make a distinction between the good and the greatest.

And then you have the album context. If good songwriting is hard, making an album sound like a whole piece (instead of a group of songs or instead of the same exercise over and over again) is something even harder!

Oh, and I totally agree on the technical versus simpler ideas/songs. Sometimes keeping it simple is what really makes it.

In the end, having good and different ideas is what really counts!

Word up !

There are songs from Alice In Chains on the "dirt" album, if i just isolated some verses, i'd think "well this is really average", but when you listen to the entire song it starts to make sense and you know that part you found "average" is actually going to introduce/compliment (complement ?) the chorus or some other part, and vice-versa.

Another good example is the song "love" by Strapping Young Lad. Apart from the chorus which is just EPIC, if you isolate the other parts they sound like nothing too special, but when you listen through the entire song you get blown away basically. And i think the singing through the song is the what glues the parts the most and give them that "song" perspective.

Of course there is still some "technical" music out there that "flows naturally" (flowing naturally defines good songwriting IMO). For example Dying Fetus' "Destroy the opposition" album is very brutal and get technical at times, but all the songs are memorable and catchy from A to Z, and you can end up singing the whole album with no difficulty.
Best example of that would be the "epidemic of hate" song, which builds up nicely through the song. And this album has a pretty raw production, but it kicks ass cuz' the song rules.