The News Thread

Nice.

You might be interested in reading William Gibson's NYT piece he wrote back in 2003, called "The Road to Oceania."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/25/opinion/the-road-to-oceania.html

The last half or so of the piece is really good:

Orwell's projections come from the era of information broadcasting, and are not applicable to our own. Had Orwell been able to equip Big Brother with all the tools of artificial intelligence, he would still have been writing from an older paradigm, and the result could never have described our situation today, nor suggested where we might be heading.

That our own biggish brothers, in the name of national security, draw from ever wider and increasingly transparent fields of data may disturb us, but this is something that corporations, nongovernmental organizations and individuals do as well, with greater and greater frequency. The collection and management of information, at every level, is exponentially empowered by the global nature of the system itself, a system unfettered by national boundaries or, increasingly, government control.

It is becoming unprecedentedly difficult for anyone, anyone at all, to keep a secret.

In the age of the leak and the blog, of evidence extraction and link discovery, truths will either out or be outed, later if not sooner. This is something I would bring to the attention of every diplomat, politician and corporate leader: the future, eventually, will find you out. The future, wielding unimaginable tools of transparency, will have its way with you. In the end, you will be seen to have done that which you did.

I say ''truths,'' however, and not ''truth,'' as the other side of information's new ubiquity can look not so much transparent as outright crazy. Regardless of the number and power of the tools used to extract patterns from information, any sense of meaning depends on context, with interpretation coming along in support of one agenda or another. A world of informational transparency will necessarily be one of deliriously multiple viewpoints, shot through with misinformation, disinformation, conspiracy theories and a quotidian degree of madness. We may be able to see what's going on more quickly, but that doesn't mean we'll agree about it any more readily.

Orwell did the job he set out to do, did it forcefully and brilliantly, in the painstaking creation of our best-known dystopia. I've seen it said that because he chose to go there, as rigorously and fearlessly as he did, we don't have to. I like to think there's some truth in that. But the ground of history has a way of shifting the most basic of assumptions from beneath the most scrupulously imagined situations. Dystopias are no more real than utopias. None of us ever really inhabits either -- except, in the case of dystopias, in the relative and ordinarily tragic sense of life in some extremely unfortunate place.

This is not to say that Orwell failed in any way, but rather that he succeeded. ''1984'' remains one of the quickest and most succinct routes to the core realities of 1948. If you wish to know an era, study its most lucid nightmares. In the mirrors of our darkest fears, much will be revealed. But don't mistake those mirrors for road maps to the future, or even to the present.

We've missed the train to Oceania, and live today with stranger problems.
 
Interesting piece and a great read. One thing (perhaps an oversight) kept bugging me though, that he seems to think that there is a fundamental difference between utopia and dystopia and relegates the meat of their meaning in so much as it differentiates the two from each other to simply an extremely unfortunate place. I think that's naive.
 
Interesting piece and a great read. One thing (perhaps an oversight) kept bugging me though, that he seems to think that there is a fundamental difference between utopia and dystopia and relegates the meat of their meaning in so much as it differentiates the two from each other to simply an extremely unfortunate place. I think that's naive.

Yes, I see that. Simply from having read a lot of his work, my take on those lines is that he's invoking the technical definition of utopia, which isn't "a good place" but rather "a place that doesn't exist" (utopia literally translates into "no place"). He's saying that dystopias are a kind of utopia, and therefore no realer than utopias are. In this sense, he's appealing to the literary tradition of utopia--utopian literature/fiction constructs utopias and dystopias as fantastical visions extrapolated from actual circumstances. They are, and can only ever be by definition, a fantasy. They cannot actually be real.

This doesn't preclude the possibility, of course, that individuals might find themselves living in an extremely unfortunate place (as Winston does in 1984). Gibson's not trying to downplay the horror of living in atrocious conditions--if anything, the Holocaust has taught us this lesson. He's simply saying that the dystopian imaginary is always one step beyond what is actual, and so to describe our society as dystopian is to deny the very real conditions that give rise to the scenario(s) in which we find ourselves.

I'm not sure that makes sense. Basically, because utopias and dystopias are fantasies, they rely on unrealized condtions. To call the world we live in dystopian is to posit conditions that can't be located, rendering the problems of our world undiagnosable, so to speak.
 
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To call the world we live in dystopian is to posit conditions that can't be located, rendering the problems of our world undiagnosable, so to speak.
If I were captured and relocated to North Korea, I'd say I were living in a dystopian setting, so I disagree that dystopian conditions cannot be located in our world.
 
We could say that, in an ordinary sense, sure; but Gibson is saying that's a misappropriation of the term, which is intended to convey a nonexistent reality.

Using the word because an experience seems dystopian does not mean that dystopian conditions actually exist in our world.

Gibson is actually making an important political point. He's saying that when we describe real societies as dystopian we make it more difficult to solve the problems of those societies.
 
If I were captured and relocated to North Korea, I'd say I were living in a dystopian setting, so I disagree that dystopian conditions cannot be located in our world.

Yes but the leaders of North Korea would tell you you're living in a utopia and since dystopia and utopia are concepts that originate from heaven and hell, the nature of both being entirely subjective, you couldn't refute it. This is why I believe the nature of utopia and dystopia is actually a duality, they're both the same and only differ depending on who you ask.

Singing hymns to God for eternity is heaven to others and utter hell to many more.
 
We could say that, in an ordinary sense, sure; but Gibson is saying that's a misappropriation of the term, which is intended to convey a nonexistent reality.

Using the word because an experience seems dystopian does not mean that dystopian conditions actually exist in our world.

Gibson is actually making an important political point. He's saying that when we describe real societies as dystopian we make it more difficult to solve the problems of those societies.
So is there any real-world application of this term, or have I unwittingly stumbled into a strictly speculative dialogue?
 
Until you move to North Korea and show me you're just as happy there as you are where you currently live, I disagree.

I think the bigger challenge here would be to ask a well-cared-for North Korean to move to a Western country and see if he or she is as happy as they were in N. Korea.

So is there any real-world application of the term, or is this purely speculative?

As a kind of utopia, dystopias are always speculative. That's built into their definition. I think that we can say real places make us think of dystopias, or that certain places might seem dystopian; but to call a real society dystopian is to basically call it a fantasy.
 
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So Trump's reversing the whole tranny bathroom thing that was shoveled into our faces by the previous administration? Sweet. I can't count how many times i've seen even women refuse to go into those bathrooms. Just a few weeks ago i saw a woman changing her babies diapers in the lobby area of a malls restroom because she refused to go in. I've seen more than a few women show shock/disgust on their faces and walk back after seeing those signs.
 
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I don't know if it's always this way, but when I've seen them, they've been right near men's and women's restrooms. That seems to solve the problem. If you don't like it, use te "regular" restrooms. If you feel like the unisex restroom better suits your needs, then use that.
 
only time ive seen those bathrooms were at my old college's gym and I used it every time because it was fucking hugeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

trying to figure out how people see so many trans people
 
... sad. Do you have a wife? Daughters? Sisters? Go ask them what they think/how they feel about sharing public bathrooms with men, instead of responding with a retardedly simplistic(and ignorant if i might add) comment.

I go to several venues that have unisex toilets regularly. No one gives a fuck. Because us Europeans are all weird and not total fucking mongs when it comes to that sort of thing, I suppose.
 
I don't know if it's always this way, but when I've seen them, they've been right near men's and women's restrooms. That seems to solve the problem. If you don't like it, use te "regular" restrooms. If you feel like the unisex restroom better suits your needs, then use that.

Most of the ones i've seen have been merged into one big bathroom. For example, they've turned the ones in the Glendale Galleria food court into one big "all-gender/gender neutral" bathroom. You can actually sit there and count how many people(mainly women) bust u-turns after walking up to the door and seeing those signs ... but yet you have all these liberal cunts in politics acting like they know better or something ... only to be supported by some of the filthiest, most classless, moral-less group of people on this planet ... American liberals.
 
I go to several venues that have unisex toilets regularly. No one gives a fuck. Because us Europeans are all weird and not total fucking mongs when it comes to that sort of thing, I suppose.


yeah .... so no wife, daughters or sisters? Your response is "i use them at concerts so fuck yeah I APPROVE!" :lol: Like i said, sad.

yeah, you europeans are fucking filthy. The swamp of this planet.