The News Thread

[Einherjar86]

Important reading:

Back in 1989, I had to make a decision about whether to lie on my citizenship application. At the time, immigration law banned “aliens afflicted with sexual deviation,” among others suffering from “psychopathic personality,” from entry to the United States. I had come to this country as a fourteen-year-old, in 1981, but I had been aware of my “sexual deviation” at the time, and this technically meant that I should not have entered the country. I decided to append a letter to my citizenship application, informing the Immigration and Naturalization Service that I was homosexual but that I disagreed with the exclusion and would be willing to discuss the matter in court. I was young, ambitious, and pragmatically cocky: I had entered the country as a stateless person, not to mention a minor, so I figured that I couldn’t be deported. The rational thing to do, however, would have been to obfuscate on my citizenship application.

My application was granted without my having to fight for it in court. I hadn’t thought about my naturalization for years, but I find myself thinking about it now, thankful for the near-accident of not having lied on my application. Over the years, the applications for both citizenship and permanent residence have grown ever longer, filling with questions that seem to be designed to be used against the applicant. Question 26 on the green-card application, for example, reads, “Have you EVER committed a crime of any kind (even if you were not arrested, cited, charged with, or tried for that crime)?” (Emphasis in the original.) The question does not specify whether it refers to a crime under current U.S. law or the laws of the country in which the crime might have been committed. In the Soviet Union of my youth, it was illegal to possess foreign currency or to spend the night anywhere where you were not registered to live. In more than seventy countries, same-sex sexual activity is still illegal. On closer inspection, just about every naturalized citizen might look like an outlaw, or a liar.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-...ns-no-longer-have-an-assumption-of-permanence

 

[Dak]

Well when the guy regurgitates the easily debunked lie about the animals comment, it's hard to be sympathetic to the author. That said, the task force undermines a more functional limited immigration policy, not the least of which by undermining rhetoric about "Putting American Citizens First". The low possibility of catching a few "bad apples" that made it through the immigration process doesn't even come close to balancing the negative impact on other legitimate immigration limiting efforts, by showing that even erstwhile citizens are at risk.

 

[Einherjar86]

To your first point, sympathy with the author depends on your perspective. It's not an "easily debunked lie," it's an equivocation. It's only easily debunked if we're giving Trump the benefit of the doubt, and that's a matter of one's perspective. Personally, I'll give him him the benefit of the doubt; but it was still a stupid thing to say, which is just daily life at this point. And the president is still a bigot, so even if he didn't mean to call all immigrants animals, it doesn't make a huge difference.

But generally speaking, yes; the problem lies in how easy it will be for immigration officials to classify naturalized citizens' statuses as illegitimate.

 

[Dak]

To your first point, sympathy with the author depends on your perspective. It's not an "easily debunked lie," it's an equivocation. It's only easily debunked if we're giving Trump the benefit of the doubt, and that's a matter of one's perspective.

Trump called MS-13 members animals. I have no problem with this. Some MS-13 members are likely illegals. So technically, he called some immigrants animals. The illegal, MS-13 kind. I have a serious problem with people who have a problem with this rhetoric applied to MS-13 members. But of course, people taking issue with it likely live in gated communities far away from the problems MS-13 causes.

But generally speaking, yes; the problem lies in how easy it will be for immigration officials to classify naturalized citizens' statuses as illegitimate.

Eh, that's less of an issue to me than the broader immigration reform issues. Ease of doing a thing they shouldn't be bothering with (putting citizens in jeopardy) is just the proverbial bad cherry on top.

 

[Einherjar86]

Trump called MS-13 members animals. I have no problem with this. Some MS-13 members are likely illegals. So technically, he called some immigrants animals. The illegal, MS-13 kind. I have a serious problem with people who have a problem with this rhetoric applied to MS-13 members. But of course, people taking issue with it likely live in gated communities far away from the problems MS-13 causes.

I know the context and I know the explanation.

Eh, that's less of an issue to me than the broader immigration reform issues. Ease of doing a thing they shouldn't be bothering with (putting citizens in jeopardy) is just the proverbial bad cherry on top.

I don't understand why they're not equally shitty.

 

[Dak]

I don't understand why they're not equally shitty.

Because making doing the thing more difficult A. Doesn't fix the problem of it being done to begin with B. Isn't going to silence any of the outcry.

For any number of things the Trump administration has done that any part of the media has been in an uproar about, any back-pedaling or better explanation have had zero effect in reducing the outcry. Most recent case in point: Showing pictures from inside the illegal immigrant child detention facilities.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/18/17474986/family-separation-border-video

These photos were the Trump administration’s attempt to quiet criticism. They’re only increasing critics’ horror.

When Sen. Jeff Merkley (D-OR) visited a detention center for unaccompanied immigrant children two weeks ago in McAllen, Texas, what he saw shocked him. There were “hundreds of children locked up in cages there at that facility,” he told CNN, adding that the “cages [were] made out of fencing and then wire and nets stretched across the top of them so people can’t climb out of them.”

This part is amusing. Would they be any less mad if the facilities didn't have internal "cages"? Would they be any less mad if the cages were made from other materials? No. If these detainment facilities didn't exist would they be any less mad about other aspects of limiting immigration (although nary a peep under Obama)? Nope. Just shift the outcry to a different target. Trump seems to have figured out long ago that The Ratchet works the other way too.

 

[Einherjar86]

I think people would be less mad if officials reunited children with their parents, which is the point of the facility in the first place--to house children separated from their parents.

If you're opposed to factory farming, it doesn't matter how many photos are released showing the animals being given blankets or fed or played with--you're not going to be appeased.

 

[The Ozzman]

We just need to make the border like the Korean DMZ and grant citizenship for anyone who gets through since that would take some effort and skill.

Fucking liberals crying about policies implemented by liberals because Trump is at the helm. Please keep crying me a fucking river because that's all you're good at doing.

 

[Dak]

I think people would be less mad if officials reunited children with their parents, which is the point of the facility in the first place--to house children separated from their parents.

Well I haven't read enough to see why children aren't sent back with the family, but there are legitimate reasons for housing children separately. And I don't think that those who are mad about it would be any less mad because:

If you're opposed to factory farming, it doesn't matter how many photos are released showing the animals being given blankets or fed or played with--you're not going to be appeased.

Precisely. Now that Trump is in office, Democrats (after the media has whipped them up on it anyway) are now mad about immigration restrictions again. Doesn't matter if it's the Border Patrol, ICE, The Wall, etc.

 

[Einherjar86]

Well I haven't read enough to see why children aren't sent back with the family, but there are legitimate reasons for housing children separately.

Maybe on a case by case basis, but not systematically. Systematic separation is a terrorizing strategy, for all intents and purposes.

Precisely.

 

[Satanstoenail]

We just need to make the border like the Korean DMZ and grant citizenship for anyone who gets through since that would take some effort and skill.

Fucking liberals crying about policies implemented by liberals because Trump is at the helm. Please keep crying me a fucking river because that's all you're good at doing.

Trump just flipped on it so maybe all that crying was good for something after all. Or maybe Melania threatened him with divorce.

 

[Einherjar86]

Or he was distracted by the Incredibles figurine he got in his happy meal.

 

[Dak]

And of course the media and the twitteratti are so happy.... #not.

 

[viewerfromnihil]

And of course the media and the twitteratti are so happy.... #not.

Happy because... he stopped doing a terrible thing that he undertook under personal initiative? If only more rape victims wrote thank you letters to their rapists for not killing them.

 

[Dak]

Happy because... he stopped doing a terrible thing that he undertook under personal initiative? If only more rape victims wrote thank you letters to their rapists for not killing them.

What a conflation.

But this is precisely what I said would happen. There's zero political/PR incentive for any compromise at this point.

 

[Einherjar86]

The prophet of indistinct perturbations. A high calling indeed.

 

[viewerfromnihil]

Don't say I never give you anything': Trump threw Starburst candies to Angela Merkel after world leaders 'ganged up' on him during ill-tempered meeting at G7

So there's a lot that could be unpacked here and my position is rather obvious, so I'll save you all that, but I've gotta ask the important question: does anybody find it strange that the president of the United States, generally speaking, was walking around with Starbursts in his pocket?

 

[rms]

nah man starbursts are fucking legit and everyone else's candy is garbage

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Starbursts are ok on the flavor-side of things but they're one of the worst tooth-yanking candies out there and not worth the effort of chewing for what you get. Very overrated.

 

[The Ozzman]

Trump has achieved master level troll in record time. What a mad man!