The News Thread

btw if you think that looks good then you have shit taste even in guns.

The entire gun community disagrees with your statement and everyone I've talked to about it talks about how nice looking it is. If you talked to people other than hoodrats, you would know this. What modern guns do you find to be aesthetic?
 
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Explain your reasoning of why there would be risks to this

Why there would be risks to people being able to purchase automatic weapons? Increased ease of access leads to increased risk of incident.

By "incident" I mean any gun-related event, including accidents. We could also specify increased risk of assault; and with automatic weapons, the capacity for inflicting harm goes up.

Automatic weapons are designed for nothing other than inflicting harm. They're not designed for hunting or for self-defense. I don't think a desire to collect justifies the right to purchase them.
 
Increased ease of access leads to increased risk of incident.

Increased access alone does not lead to increased risk of incident. It is a multitude of things that lead to incidents with firearms or anything else that can cause harm. Lack of training, negligence, substance abuse while wielding a firearm, etc. It is not easy to access heroin by conventional means, but the rate of people dying from heroin OD increases every day.


By "incident" I mean any gun-related event, including accidents. We could also specify increased risk of assault; and with automatic weapons, the capacity for inflicting harm goes up.

Why does the capacity for inflicting harm go up? You are way more inaccurate with a fully automatic weapon than with a semi automatic weapon based on the ability to control it. The only thing increased is rate of fire and maybe bullet capacity depending on the magazine you use but that doesn't mean anything if you can't control the damn weapon. I would argue semi automatic weapons are more dangerous than fully automatic weapons because it is easier to be more accurate with them. With an increased degree of accuracy, you become deadlier with whatever you're wielding.

Automatic weapons are designed for nothing other than inflicting harm.

Not an argument for me not owning one if my intent is not to inflict harm. You cannot legislate things or disqualify ownership based on what people may or may not 'intend' to do. Does it happen? Yes. Is it right? No.

You could make this case for guns that aren't used for hunting or personal defense (i.e. people who have a collection of guns sitting in a safe that they take to the range once a year) and are not automatic. Why is there not an appeal that those could also 'inflict harm' and should be banned because they are deemed 'excessive' just as the rate of fire is deemed arbitrarily 'excessive' on something like a Browning M2?

They're not designed for hunting or for self-defense.

According to whom? Your emotions or some professor you saw lecture on it 6 months ago?

From a practical standpoint, I would agree that they are not suitable for hunting mainly due to the fact that the recoil from a machine gun makes it hard to control on full auto and because only certain ammunition is allowed and it varies by state. I don't know of any full auto .454 machine guns in existence. However, there are semi auto or 'burst fire' settings on some of these that would make it more suitable for hunting or personal defense. The only really 'concealable' machine gun type weapon I know of is the Glock 18 which is just a Glock 17 with an auto fire setting. That is hard to control without a stock attached to it and the stock makes it hard to conceal.

The advantage to having a machine gun for personal defense would be for someone with mobility issues. Some would say that should disqualify someone from owning a gun at all but the mobility issues make them more vulnerable to harm also so that argument could go on forever based on how each side thinks. I'm talking mobility issues in the hands here anyway. Being able to hold down the trigger to get multiple rounds to fire would be more advantageous for someone with hand issues vs. having to pull the trigger for each individual shot because it requires less muscle control.

I don't think a desire to collect justifies the right to purchase them.

Not an argument. I don't think a desire to quit smoking justifies someone vaping instead because it is just as harmful but it is allowed and legal to do and, arguably, more dangerous than owning a machine gun.
 
So there's no grandfather clause

Unless you only own a hunting rifle that holds 10 rounds maximum in the magazine, you are a felon under this new law in New Jersey if you own a firearm. You are naive to think people did not buy 10+ round magazines for their firearms. It is more efficient for range use and personal defense. This means that the .22LR AR style rifles with a 25 round standard magazine make someone a felon in the state of New Jersey. I am willing to bet that >95% of firearm owners in New Jersey have more than one firearm. It is evident you didn't read the article. 90% of firearms come standard with magazines that hold at least 10 rounds. There are some models (like the Glock 43) which hold a fewer number of rounds. I own one firearm that came with a 10 round magazine. The others came with magazine capacity of at least 12 rounds. 10 round magazines are out there because people live in police states like California and are required to have those.

Dammit, my varmint gun (22) that I need to get fixed is now illegal since it holds more than 10 rounds. Unless this applies only to clip on magazines, idk. Im not really a gun guy so I dont know the nomenclature, but I do have quite a collection that I inherited from my father.

In general I dont really think people should be able to own working versions of what are military grade mass killing weapons. I have friends that do, and they say shooting them (at a range or at someone's farm) is really fun, but it does seem kind of dangerous to allow people access to them.

Not an argument. I don't think a desire to quit smoking justifies someone vaping instead because it is just as harmful but it is allowed and legal to do and, arguably, more dangerous than owning a machine gun.

What a terrible example. Doctors have conceded that vaping is at least 98% safer than smoking cigarettes. If you were to replace one vice with another, vaping is a far safer choice (not to imply that it is harmless). Also comparing self-harm with harm to others is where the comparison gets even worse.

Oh, and lol @ that "debate" between CIG and TB. The primary function of "art" does not have to be admiration.
 
Unless this applies only to clip on magazines, idk.

Any detachable box magazine that holds 10+ rounds basically. The NJ police confirmed they are not going door to door to confiscate the magazines so you all are safe for now

but it does seem kind of dangerous to allow people access to them.

Why? What makes it more dangerous than an average firearm?

A full auto firearm with sustained rate of fire is more likely to jam than a semi auto that doesn't have sustained fire. Should we ban semi autos because they are less likely to jam and, therefore, more effective at killing people? I'm not even taking into account the fact that a barrel can melt if automatic fire is sustained for too long.

My AR-15 can take 60 round drum mags which is higher capacity than some automatic weapons. Why are automatic weapons more dangerous with this in mind?

In general I dont really think people should be able to own working versions of what are military grade mass killing weapons.

Found another anti-2Aer on the board!

Define 'military grade mass killing weapons'. Specific examples, not just whatever Vox or HuffPo regurgitate in their articles

at least 98% safer

Need some sauce for that. I did find an article saying that it is safer than cigarettes, but no percentage was given in terms of how safe.

Also comparing self-harm with harm to others is where the comparison gets even worse.

No it doesn't, but I am of the opinion that self harm is just as bad as or worse than harming others
 
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Increased access alone does not lead to increased risk of incident.

Yes it does; it's statistical analysis, and studies have been done that demonstrate access alone increases risk. This isn't really a controversial topic, and even gun advocates acknowledge that increased access obviously means increased risk. This is why they promote things like firearm education and safety training. The risk is there no matter what. The risk goes up even more if it's a weapon capable of firing more rounds more quickly.

Why does the capacity for inflicting harm go up? You are way more inaccurate with a fully automatic weapon than with a semi automatic weapon based on the ability to control it. The only thing increased is rate of fire and maybe bullet capacity depending on the magazine you use but that doesn't mean anything if you can't control the damn weapon. I would argue semi automatic weapons are more dangerous than fully automatic weapons because it is easier to be more accurate with them. With an increased degree of accuracy, you become deadlier with whatever you're wielding.

This strikes me as counterintuitive. You're citing inaccuracy as being less dangerous, but this assumes that a) the shooting isn't accidental, and b) the intentional shooter cares about accuracy in the first place. A person with a semi-automatic may be able to make more accurate individual shots, but there will come more slowly and there will be fewer of them.

Not an argument for me not owning one if my intent is not to inflict harm. You cannot legislate things or disqualify ownership based on what people may or may not 'intend' to do. Does it happen? Yes. Is it right? No.

If your intent isn't to cause harm, then you don't need the automatic weapon. Your "wants" shouldn't factor into it.

You could make this case for guns that aren't used for hunting or personal defense (i.e. people who have a collection of guns sitting in a safe that they take to the range once a year) and are not automatic. Why is there not an appeal that those could also 'inflict harm' and should be banned because they are deemed 'excessive' just as the rate of fire is deemed arbitrarily 'excessive' on something like a Browning M2?

I don't know what kind of potential collectors' items you're referring to. I know people who have 18th-19th-century rifles in their homes, but the risk factor involved there is far less than with a functional automatic weapon (virtually insignificant, I'd say). So I don't see such items as "excessive."

According to whom? Your emotions or some professor you saw lecture on it 6 months ago?

According to hunters, in fact. Ones I've talked to, at least (which include family members and friends--yes, I do know people who hunt. I grew up around hick-ville).

However, there are semi auto or 'burst fire' settings on some of these that would make it more suitable for hunting or personal defense. The only really 'concealable' machine gun type weapon I know of is the Glock 18 which is just a Glock 17 with an auto fire setting. That is hard to control without a stock attached to it and the stock makes it hard to conceal.

I have no problem with semi-automatic and in fact do know the difference, as I used to read gun magazines when I was a teenager. I've even shot guns before with my family when I was younger.

The advantage to having a machine gun for personal defense would be for someone with mobility issues. Some would say that should disqualify someone from owning a gun at all but the mobility issues make them more vulnerable to harm also so that argument could go on forever based on how each side thinks. I'm talking mobility issues in the hands here anyway. Being able to hold down the trigger to get multiple rounds to fire would be more advantageous for someone with hand issues vs. having to pull the trigger for each individual shot because it requires less muscle control.

I'm not sure appealing to people with mobility issues in their hands is the best way to argue for access to automatic weapons.

Not an argument. I don't think a desire to quit smoking justifies someone vaping instead because it is just as harmful but it is allowed and legal to do and, arguably, more dangerous than owning a machine gun.

As EM said, one involves risk to oneself, while the other involves risk to oneself and others. Not a good comparison.
 
I don't know what kind of potential collectors' items you're referring to

I was trying to say that people collect weapons as well as use them. There are some who buy the guns because they are unique (but also functional) and they just sit in a safe. If not being used for personal defense or hunting, should that be eliminated because it's seen as 'excessive' regarding ownership?

I am speaking more of the fact that I would like to own a Tommy gun because I think they are cool and it is an iconic weapon. While I can technically own one now if I pass the background check, it is cost prohibitive to do so. Repealing the NFA or relaxing restrictions on obtaining the weapons or manufacturing them would allow me to own one for far less money. However, the appeal would be gone because they could then be mass produced again vs. having an era accurate firearm that is more 'rare'.

If your intent isn't to cause harm, then you don't need the automatic weapon.

If my intent isn't to cause harm, why shouldn't I be able to own one? Your appeals to emotion mean nothing to me. You are not the keeper of what someone should or shouldn't be able to own.

Your "wants" shouldn't factor into it.

Why?

A person with a semi-automatic may be able to make more accurate individual shots, but there will come more slowly and there will be fewer of them.

They will come more slowly, but I don't know if there will be fewer of them depending on how adept the shooter is at reloading or pulling the trigger. It's unwieldy to transport ammo boxes for something like an M249 rather than a 60 round drum mag or two for an AR that you could clip to a belt loop using an improvised clip of some kind.

You're citing inaccuracy as being less dangerous, but this assumes that a) the shooting isn't accidental, and b) the intentional shooter cares about accuracy in the first place.

Because the tendency of the gun is to go straight up with the recoil. Even if you are strafing, unless you start by pointing below your target, you won't hit much. I would imagine the amount of adrenaline pouring through someone's system will also not aid them in their accuracy and will cause them to be more off target. Is there potential for someone to get injured who isn't even in proximity to the shooting? Yes. If in an enclosed area, most misses will go into the walls or ceiling.
 
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I was trying to say that people collect weapons as well as use them. There are some who buy the guns because they are unique (but also functional) and they just sit in a safe. If not being used for personal defense or hunting, should that be eliminated because it's seen as 'excessive' regarding ownership?

I am speaking more of the fact that I would like to own a Tommy gun because I think they are cool and it is an iconic weapon. While I can technically own one now if I pass the background check, it is cost prohibitive to do so. Repealing the NFA or relaxing restrictions on obtaining the weapons or manufacturing them would allow me to own one for far less money. However, the appeal would be gone because they could then be mass produced again vs. having an era accurate firearm that is more 'rare'.

And I'm saying I think the dangers of automatic fire outweigh any potential value the weapon might have as a collector's item. If you want to collect Revolutionary War-era rifles, then I'm okay with that. Unfortunately, the dangers of automatic weapons--no matter how iconic--outweigh their value as collectors' items.

If my intent isn't to cause harm, why shouldn't I be able to own one? Your appeals to emotion mean nothing to me. You are not the keeper of what someone should or shouldn't be able to own.

I'm not appealing to emotion. I'm appealing to risk assessment. Intention is a folly thing. What you intend today may not be what you intend tomorrow.

I'm not the keeper, but I'm allowed to have opinions. Or are my opinions on what I think you shouldn't be allowed to own "triggering"?


Because you're not Robinson Crusoe.

They will come more slowly, but I don't know if there will be fewer of them depending on how adept the shooter is at reloading or pulling the trigger. It's unwieldy to transport ammo boxes for something like an M249 rather than a 60 round drum mag or two for an AR that you could clip to a belt loop using an improvised clip of some kind.

The personal hacks people can use to make semi-automatic weapons more destructive aren't justification for making automatic weapons more easily accessible.
 
I don't get this reference because I haven't read the book.

"No man is an island," basically. Crusoe would do whatever, and take whatever, he wanted (within the confines of rational reason, of course) because there was no one else to impede his desires (other than Friday, but he was a lowly savage and who cares about them?). It's a great book, hilarious and cringe-worthy by turns.

What I'm saying is that when our possessions and desires intersect with those of others, we all have to make sacrifices regarding things we want. Hardcore individualists see this as infringement, and maybe it is. But there's no such thing as a Crusoe-ian world devoid of infringement. So I try to look at it from a risk perspective and go from there.

What other dangers exist with automatic weapons other than rate of fire and capacity? If capacity were changed, would you still be against ownership of them?

I don't know, I'd have to think about it. I'm tempted to say "then what's the point?" if the capacity were lowered.
 
Wow. What a bitch.

All I did was employ a similar analysis to the one that gets thrown at people who either aren't educated, or educated differently. You don't likelit, and they don't like it. BTW I should have clarified strong *counter* values, didn't mean to suggest you had no values.

That said, the available data suggests that group membership is a strong driver of belief acceptance, but on the other hand it also suggests that at least at the bachelor's level, a college education doesn't affect political leaning. I would expect that to hold at the graduate level as well, based on selection effects if nothing else.
 
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All I did was employ a similar analysis to the one that gets thrown at people who either aren't educated, or educated differently. You don't likelit, and they don't like it. BTW I should have clarified strong *counter* values didn't mean to suggest you had no values.

I never dismiss or demean anyone for being "uneducated" or not having gone to college or graduate school, unless they first dismiss or demean me for having done so. I don't view people as inferior or unintelligent because they haven't had significant upper-level education, but I will point out where I think values are coming into play over critical thinking or reflection. That doesn't mean my comments aren't coming from an evaluative position. I'm perfectly aware that my comments and opinions are highly conditioned by my historical experience, but I also take some pride in the time and work by which I've come to this point.

When I left for graduate school in Chicago, I would have called myself something like a libertarian, and probably not in the left-leaning sense. While I was at Chicago, I was exposed to alternative perspectives. After graduating Chicago (it was a one-year program), I had a choice: I could have left academia and never gone back, or I could have pursued a doctorate and academic job. I chose the latter not because I felt comfort or allegiance to a group, but because I felt I'd grown as an individual. At the time of my graduation, I had no academic group to call my own. I had to go through the hassle of applying in order to be accepted into one, which I did not because of the political views but because I enjoy working on literary history and theory. So I don't completely buy into your psychological assessment of me that it was allegiance to academia that swayed me politically.

Since being a member of an academic community, I'll certainly acknowledge that my views have intensified. That's something I should watch out for. But I think it's safe to say that, of those who take the time to argue on this forum, everyone's views are intense and entrenched. It isn't an ideal environment for having controlled discussions about political issues.
 
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Why there would be risks to people being able to purchase automatic weapons? Increased ease of access leads to increased risk of incident.
a very weak and generic argument. We can literally apply that to anything and start banning everything.

Oh, and lol @ that "debate" between CIG and TB. The primary function of "art" does not have to be admiration.
actually that is one of it's "primary functions" and purposes, and that's all i was saying.

AMAAAAAAZING.

Actually I said that to you saying "A piece of art is meant to be enjoyed with your eyes. That is all."

Oof, you stink.
oh im sorry i left out a word(typically) which i used in literally every other post when saying the same thing. but i'm sure you didnt know that right? :rolleyes:
 
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a very weak and generic argument. We can literally apply that to anything and start banning everything.

We could also apply it to nothing and allow people access to anything they want. The absurdity runs both ways. The point is to push from both directions and hopefully wind up somewhere in an agreeable (to most people) middle. The debate will always be about where the middle is.
 
The entire gun community disagrees with your statement and everyone I've talked to about it talks about how nice looking it is. If you talked to people other than hoodrats, you would know this. What modern guns do you find to be aesthetic?
"appealing to the popular opinion" much? :lol: I personally dont give a shit what anyone else thinks looks good. I have my own set of eyes that make that decision for me. Btw most of my family consists of hunters and current and ex-military and lets not forget that i owned numerous firearms when you were still sucking your thumb and getting bullied in school.

they're not all "modern", but here are a few that i think look far better, and none of them are going to have colorful neon handles lmao. I can literally close my eyes and pick better autoloader handguns, but i'll stick to some sexy ass revolvers ...

Nighthawk Supersport
korth-supersport-002.jpg


S&W 629 Performance Center Hunter
image92109-923ce6af686dcb412e84571ea6e2ddc7.jpg

S&W 629 Stealth Hunter
SMW_170323__14302.1504802285.jpg

S&W M&P revolvers ...
smith__wesson_mp_r8_revolver_1456910_1.jpg


S&W Jerry Miculek 929
s-w-model-929-jerry-miculek-660x509.jpg


Chiappa Rhino
5647.jpg


Uberti Top Break models
uberti_nickel_topbreak.jpg



EMF Liberty
GWII_Liberty.jpg

Dan Wesson 715
PY-3856_Dan-Wesson-715-6.jpg


Ruger Super Blackhawk..
70661_1.jpg


Colt Walker
1847Colt_Walker.jpg


1863 New Model Army
GYBmZBQ.jpg

i can literally keep going for pages

...all of these make that neon handle thing you psoted look like a childs toy
 
That CZ I posted is in high demand and a better shooter than anything you posted although when I get a revolver it'll be S&W

Also, aren't you younger than me? How did you legally own a firearm before you were born?
 
Watchout Ozz, if TB kills you, you'll have to spend eternity with a group of Muslims he also stuck it to.

edit: FWIW, I'm with TB on the revolver v. pistol question, and I say that as somebody who would happily see them both banned.