The News Thread

I don't have any issue with the above, but that has nothing to do with the statement that "Everyone is equally likely to be born anywhere." No they aren't. We aren't souls getting randomly dropped into bodies.

Every body inevitably has a conscious person that inhabits it. Whoever "you" are is merely perspective. "You" could be anyone on this planet. To continue this line of thought, "you" is equally likely to be born anywhere, or wherever statistics dictate most likely if you want to get more technical.

I was disputing a stupid assertion that because my black friend was born, he was more likely to be born into poverty, and that I should consider that. I got annoyed by this idea because he, in fact, was born to a richer family than me, so rms' point was fucking bullshit and racist.
 
Every body inevitably has a conscious person that inhabits it.

Bodies are not inhabited by consciousness. This is a form of Cartesian/dualistic thinking, and it's got a long history, but it's incorrect. Your consciousness is an emergent property of aspects of your genes/body and some degree of interaction between those material bases and your developmental environment. The consciousness that is described as "I" or "me" could not possibly arise in any other contingency, and the same goes for everyone else.
 
On the subject of Maher's smugness...



I don't entirely disagree with what he's thinking, and I do think it's funny that so many people are butthurt about this, but the sheer smugness and fart-huffing of how he went about it is just so typical of Maher. Also there's some irony in the fact that a lot of Maher's fans are people who grew up watching him, if only they would also put away childish things and stop.

(Basically he shat on Stan Lee and comic books and received backlash.)
 
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Bodies are not inhabited by consciousness. This is a form of Cartesian/dualistic thinking, and it's got a long history, but it's incorrect. Your consciousness is an emergent property of aspects of your genes/body and some degree of interaction between those material bases and your developmental environment. The consciousness that is described as "I" or "me" could not possibly arise in any other contingency, and the same goes for everyone else.

Ill take your word for the philosophical sophistry, but you can at least see what im getting at, no? Im pretty sure I know more about how genes and the body functions than you do, and the perspective im taking on a human consciousness inhabiting a body is from a personal viewpoint (or metaphorical) and not a straight up literal one. "I" just happen to be the consciousness of a white male, but in the grand scheme of things the "me" talking could be anyone. Im trying to convey the idea that: out of 'x' number of people born at 'y' (coordinates), the body you have 'z' (number) is entirely random at time 'n' (linear atomic time clock). Am I making any sense?
 
Ill take your word for the philosophical sophistry, but you can at least see what im getting at, no? Im pretty sure I know more about how genes and the body functions than you do, and the perspective im taking on a human consciousness inhabiting a body is from a personal viewpoint (or metaphorical) and not a straight up literal one. "I" just happen to be the consciousness of a white male, but in the grand scheme of things the "me" talking could be anyone. Im trying to convey the idea that: out of 'x' number of people born at 'y' (coordinates), the body you have 'z' (number) is entirely random at time 'n' (linear atomic time clock). Am I making any sense?

It's not sophistry, and you're the one leaning on a quasi-Rawlsian framework of thought here (which is, to some degree, sophistic). Yes, stepping back, given a non-deterministic approach to the world, at this given point, absent chain-of-events knowledge, things could be any number of ways, but they happen to be the way they are. It still does not follow that "I" could "be in your body", or whatever, had things gone differently. I do not "have" my body; if anything, using that kind of language, my body has me.
 
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On the subject of Maher's smugness...

I don't entirely disagree with what he's thinking, and I do think it's funny that so many people are butthurt about this, but the sheer smugness and fart-huffing of how he went about it is just so typical of Maher. Also there's some irony in the fact that a lot of Maher's fans are people who grew up watching him, if only they would also put away childish things and stop.

(Basically he shat on Stan Lee and comic books and received backlash.)

I kinda like him here in that he has the balls to take a shit right on his audience's face. Ordinarily the smugness is backed by his audience and directed at whichever guest he happens to disagree with on his show.
 
Well it's probably easy to be smug when you have stage managers queuing applause breaks.

Yeah but he's doubling-down on the notoriety and people (claiming that they'll) abandon him. I always respect self-destruction. Though maybe he does this kind of stuff a lot? I've run into a lot of Maher fans on the internet, and I'd guess that a decent number roughly fall into the manchild capeshit category that Maher is attacking.
 
I find it funny that he seems to be getting more shit for this than his comments about Islam over the years. Maher is one of the few left-wing pundits that still has a spine so I think he's safe from self-destruction, even if his manbaby fans are pissed now. They'll flock back to him the next time the right does something they hate because they know Maher will give as uncucked a response to it as the mainstream left can muster.

But what I mean is, it's easy to shit on your fans when the ones you're shitting on aren't in the crowd you're speaking to in the moment ("he has the balls to take a shit right on his audience's face"). He'd never spring this shit unannounced at a live gig or whatever. If it weren't for the forced laughter of his studio audience I wouldn't even suspect he's a comedian anymore.
 
"I" just happen to be the consciousness of a white male, but in the grand scheme of things the "me" talking could be anyone.

The "I" of your phenomenological experience wouldn't exist if it were in a woman's body, or a black body, etc. Dak's point is that your consciousness is determined by biology; it's not a subsistent essence that can be transported elsewhere. So when you say that, "in the grand scheme of things the 'me' talking could be anyone," that's not an entirely accurate statement--because if the "me" talking were someone else, then it wouldn't be "you."

The easier way to think about how this impact individuals socio-demographically is to ignore consciousness altogether. The consciousness of a black person could only arise within a black body, and black bodies tend to be born into certain socioeconomic conditions. That's not to say that blacks can't be born into financial privilege, or that large numbers of white bodies aren't born into financially underprivileged conditions. It's just that a larger percentage of black bodies than white bodies tend to find themselves born in underprivileged conditions.
 
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On the subject of Maher's smugness...



I don't entirely disagree with what he's thinking, and I do think it's funny that so many people are butthurt about this, but the sheer smugness and fart-huffing of how he went about it is just so typical of Maher. Also there's some irony in the fact that a lot of Maher's fans are people who grew up watching him, if only they would also put away childish things and stop.

(Basically he shat on Stan Lee and comic books and received backlash.)


The only thing that I can even somewhat agree with him on is that superhero movies are kind of lame, but I don't look down on people who enjoy them. I think people should be able to enjoy things they like without bringing maturity to it. Most adults I know that still read comics or watch cartoons are very articulate and highly educated. It's funny how Maher's opinion on this used to be the norm oh so long ago, and now that nerd culture has taken over, people are actually surprised to be bashed for being a nerd. I do actually joke sometimes about how I am "still just a kid", but I don't view it in a bad way. It's about energy and excitability. I still have that "childish" sense of wonder for the fantastic, and imo that is a good thing.

The "I" of your phenomenological experience wouldn't exist the same way if it were in a woman's body, or a black body, etc. Dak's point is that your consciousness is determined by biology; it's not a subsistent essence that can be transported elsewhere. So when you say that, "in the grand scheme of things the 'me' talking could be anyone," that's not an entirely accurate statement--because if the "me" talking were someone else, then it wouldn't be "you."

I was metaphorically speaking though. The idea of "me" involves everyone on the planet. Everyone is their own "me". My god is this tedious.

The easier way to think about how this impact individuals socio-demographically is to ignore consciousness altogether. The consciousness of a black person could only arise within a black body, and black bodies tend to be born into certain socioeconomic conditions. That's not to say that blacks can't be born into financial privilege, or that large numbers of white bodies aren't born into financially underprivileged conditions. It's just that a larger percentage of black bodies than white bodies tend to find themselves born in underprivileged conditions.

I'm not willing to concede to the point of dividing the possibility of birth into subsections of humans. Im talking about being born as a human in general. The only way I think that I can convey my idea is to make some assumptions. Assume that there is some divine force that directs a soul into a body at birth. Like reincarnation. My soul could, at birth, theoretically be inserted into any baby currently being born on earth at the time the divine force specifies. The soul has no control over this, so therefore you could be born anywhere.

I dont see why it matters whether my friend was more likely to be born underprivileged just because he was born black. The fact of the matter was that he wasn't born underprivileged, yet was able to accrue the benefits as if he were. Im not really that against it though, as I do acknowledge that some social aspects of it can be complicated. Discrimination still exists to a certain extent, but it isnt as bad as the left suggest, and isnt as good as the right says. I think it is mostly the poor blacks that continue not to prosper, and the reason may be more internal than external.
 
Let me see if I can pinpoint where your analogy, or metaphor, or whatever breaks down.

I was metaphorically speaking though. The idea of "me" involves everyone on the planet. Everyone is their own "me". My god is this tedious.

This assumes that every human "me" is, essentially, equal in that every "me" could have manifested in any given body. This implies that the "me" exists in some metaphysical form prior to its manifestation, which is precisely what Dak and I are saying isn't the case. The "me" only comes about because of embodiment. What you are--the "me"--is what it is because of the body/biology you were born into. So if we accept that certain bodies tend, on average, to be born more frequently into less privileged social conditions, then the "me" that manifests in that body isn't equal to every other "me." It's shaped by the socioeconomic conditions that accompany its physical body.

Now, you say you're speaking metaphorically, but then you say this:

I'm not willing to concede to the point of dividing the possibility of birth into subsections of humans. Im talking about being born as a human in general. The only way I think that I can convey my idea is to make some assumptions. Assume that there is some divine force that directs a soul into a body at birth. Like reincarnation. My soul could, at birth, theoretically be inserted into any baby currently being born on earth at the time the divine force specifies. The soul has no control over this, so therefore you could be born anywhere.

Even if this is still metaphorical, the crux of the metaphor is that souls exist prior to their embodiment. You might say "I don't actually believe in reincarnation, or divine intervention"; but the only way for this metaphor to work is if we agree that souls somehow preexist the bodies they're born into.

I can't accept this metaphor because the assumption it's making--that souls preexist bodies--is precisely what I'm saying isn't the case.

I dont see why it matters whether my friend was more likely to be born underprivileged just because he was born black. The fact of the matter was that he wasn't born underprivileged, yet was able to accrue the benefits as if he were. Im not really that against it though, as I do acknowledge that some social aspects of it can be complicated. Discrimination still exists to a certain extent, but it isnt as bad as the left suggest, and isnt as good as the right says. I think it is mostly the poor blacks that continue not to prosper, and the reason may be more internal than external.

We can discuss the inequities of individual cases, which is what you seem to be focusing on. The motivating belief of affirmative action, whether you agree with it or not, is that by directing itself toward people of color, it tends to ameliorate situations for those who've experienced socioeconomic hardships. We can disagree with the ethics and/or mechanics of this, definitely--and cases like the one that affected you are a place to start--but that doesn't change the demographic patterns that shape who affirmative action is intended to benefit, i.e. socioeconomically underprivileged people of color.

I'm sorry if this has misrepresented your position, but it's what I gather from your comments.
 
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This assumes that every human "me" is, essentially, equal in that every "me" could have manifested in any given body. This implies that the "me" exists in some metaphysical form prior to its manifestation, which is precisely what Dak and I are saying isn't the case.

Yes, this is what I was getting at.

The "me" only comes about because of embodiment. What you are--the "me"--is what it is because of the body/biology you were born into. So if we accept that certain bodies tend, on average, to be born more frequently into less privileged social conditions, then the "me" that manifests in that body isn't equal to every other "me." It's shaped by the socioeconomic conditions that accompany its physical body.

You are getting into that territory that I am specifically trying to avoid with my example. Im not talking about certain bodies, im talking about all bodies.

Now, you say you're speaking metaphorically, but then you say this:



Even if this is still metaphorical, the crux of the metaphor is that souls exist prior to their embodiment. You might say "I don't actually believe in reincarnation, or divine intervention"; but the only way for this metaphor to work is if we agree that souls somehow preexist the bodies they're born into.

I can't accept this metaphor because the assumption it's making--that souls preexist bodies--is precisely what I'm saying isn't the case.

Ok, forget it then. Im trying and failing to portray a concept of "me-ness". I really don't know how to describe it other than with the metaphor of a pre-existing soul.

We can discuss the inequities of individual cases, which is what you seem to be focusing on. The motivating belief of affirmative action, whether you agree with it or not, is that by directing itself toward people of color, it tends to ameliorate situations for those who've experienced socioeconomic hardships. We can disagree with the ethics and/or mechanics of this, definitely--and cases like the one that affected you are a place to start--but that doesn't change the demographic patterns that shape who affirmative action is intended to benefit, i.e. socioeconomically underprivileged people of color.

I think what I was originally trying to get at is the resentment that brews over poor white kids currently growing up and seeing minorities get specific preferential treatment as a result of these types of overreach cases. By trying to remove racial inequality, we induce racial inequality, which just re-fuels the fire. I don't really know how to debate this, as it is more of an observation than a valid critique. In a nutshell, affirmative action improperly directed has unintended negative consequences.

I'm sorry if this has misrepresented your position, but it's what I gather from your comments.

Not a problem, it was kind of a tenuous mess to begin with, and then you guys went all philosophical 2deep4u over one of my comments and now I feel like my mind is melting.
 
ITT, Tech believes we're souls randomly dropped into bodies.

Back to the Meth Death party:

Undercover police posing as drug buyers arrested by undercover police posing as drug dealer

Also, VA governor alleges that he distinctly remembers he was not in blackface in the yearbook picture because he remembers he did blackface another other time as MJ in a dance contest and almost moon dances in a news conference to prove it :lol:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/virginia-governor-denies-he-is-in-racist-photo-refuses-to-resign
 
https://theintercept.com/2019/02/03...icating-russia-data-for-the-democratic-party/

NBC stated: “analysts at New Knowledge, the company the Senate Intelligence Committee used to track Russian activities in the 2016 election, told NBC News they’ve spotted ‘chatter’ related to Gabbard in anonymous online message boards, including those known for fomenting right-wing troll campaigns.”

What NBC – amazingly – concealed is a fact that reveals its article to be a journalistic fraud: that same firm, New Knowledge, was caught just six weeks ago engaging in a massive scam to create fictitious Russian troll accounts on Facebook and Twitter in order to claim that the Kremlin was working to defeat Democratic Senate nominee Doug Jones in Alabama. The New York Times, when exposing the scam, quoted a New Knowledge report that boasted of its fabrications: “We orchestrated an elaborate ‘false flag’ operation that planted the idea that the [Roy] Moore campaign was amplified on social media by a Russian botnet.'”

Called it. Gabbard is enemy #1 to the Democratic establishment.
 
The only thing that I can even somewhat agree with him on is that superhero movies are kind of lame, but I don't look down on people who enjoy them. I think people should be able to enjoy things they like without bringing maturity to it. Most adults I know that still read comics or watch cartoons are very articulate and highly educated. It's funny how Maher's opinion on this used to be the norm oh so long ago, and now that nerd culture has taken over, people are actually surprised to be bashed for being a nerd. I do actually joke sometimes about how I am "still just a kid", but I don't view it in a bad way. It's about energy and excitability. I still have that "childish" sense of wonder for the fantastic, and imo that is a good thing.

Maher is a super serious intellectual and political commentator. Definitely not a late night low hanging fruit material comedian.
 
If this were 100% true wouldn't non-white unemployment rates be insane?
they historically have been, but gaining employment is not the only part of the process. I'm always flabbergasted when people think whitey, or anyone, is just such a good well read person that they have no biases and if they do -- can separate them!
what they perceive to be good employees
and if black people start from a lower bar of "goodness" than whites or asians, how is that fair?
Did you seriously grow up in the US and go to a school that had no minorities at all?
I lived on a street with a couple black families but you're always missing the point to act like you're not part of a statistic. We all are, and it's ok.

And these vague "legislative things" have more than likely been corrected for some time now.
The biggest problem by far in the black community is single parent households.
just FYI, over policing is considered the worst policy in the short term memory and a reason that single parenting is a thing.

Oh shut it. You can't alienate over 70% of the country with bullshit and not expect backlash. We currently have a demagogue in the white house exactly because of this. If you want to ignore it, you are the one who doesn't have the pulse of the country.
yes dems and repubs frame issues differently...the end
 
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they historically have been, but gaining employment is not the only part of the process. I'm always flabbergasted when people think whitey, or anyone, is just such a good well read person that they have no biases and if they do -- can separate them!

I don't think that whites don't have biases, just seems counter-intuitive to the unemployment rates to say what you did.