The News Thread

[CiG]

promoting large gatherings because “carpe diem”

C'mon...

 

[zabu of nΩd]

You actually believe this dumb Tweet is a counter-argument against all the Democrats that implicitly or explicitly support AntiFa, rioting, #PunchANazi and the random assaults against people for wearing MAGA merch?

First off, here are some of the reasons right-wing extremism is a bigger problem in the US:

https://www.gao.gov/assets/690/683984.pdf

Of the 85 violent extremist incidents that resulted in death since September 12, 2001, far right wing violent extremist groups were responsible for 62 (73 percent)

https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalating-terrorism-problem-united-states

Right-wing attacks and plots account for the majority of all terrorist incidents in the United States since 1994, and the total number of right-wing attacks and plots has grown significantly during the past six years. Right-wing extremists perpetrated two thirds of the attacks and plots in the United States in 2019 and over 90 percent between January 1 and May 8, 2020.

How many of these extremists do you suppose are Trump supporters, and have been eating up the shit that people like Bannon are spewing? Bannon was executive chairman of a leading far-right media outlet, Trump's campaign manager, and the first chief strategist of the Trump administration. His Twitter account had over 160,000 followers, some of them likely the kind of nutjobs who commit these terrorist acts.

 

[CiG]

Nice pivot, but there are several issues.

1) the arbitrary starting point of "since 2001" without which you couldn't hope to make your point, 2) we've discussed "right-wing extremism" based on that pdf in here before and I recall going through some of the crimes used as examples of "right-wing extremism" like a skinhead getting into a fight with someone at a bar or a diner and the other person died of their injuries, or a Neo-Nazi gang member killed his sister's boyfriend during a dispute (the point here is that it mixes a lot of dumb but apolitical shit in with genuine examples of extremism) and 3) this gets into the game of mind reading. What do you suppose inspired James Hodgkinson to attempt a massacre at a Republican congressional baseball game? It went down in 2017 after almost 2 years of people in MAGA hats being targeted and attacked in the streets, of unending animosity from the media towards the Trump camp, are they in no way responsible for dehumanizing their political opponents?

You and Ein are being unreasonable when you pretend like Bannon's head piking comment is a call to violence.

(For the record, I accept that right-wing extremism is more common, and I'd go further and say a lot of Islamic extremism is also right-wing extremism and should count to the overall numbers of it.)

 

[zabu of nΩd]

I agree with CiG on this. If he what he said was something like "Somebody needs to get ahold of Pelosi can cut her head off," that would be totally different. Making an allusion to feudal times on a political podcast is far from a threat. It really bothers me how many liberals are beginning to be ok with censorship by a small number of corporate oligarchs.

I agree it's not a threat - I was just connecting dots between right-wing violence and the kind of shit influential people like Bannon say.

I don't necessarily think Twitter should have banned him, but it's not clear to me that censorship by social media companies is a "new" problem in terms of media censorship. Historically speaking, the only people who had a wide audience were people selected by newspaper/radio/TV companies, so censorship has been built into the media from the beginning. Obviously plenty of left-wing views are suppressed on Fox News for example.

My bigger concerns here are pro-censorship sentiment taking the form of Congressional action, and whether anti-trust regulators (who arguably were asleep at the wheel while Facebook and Google were on acquisition sprees) can provide a counterweight to overconsolidated social media in the future.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

I agree. But conservatism is why we can’t have nice things.

There we pretty much agree, though I would say the neoliberals are a major part of the problem as well.

I agree it's not a threat - I was just connecting dots between right-wing violence and the kind of shit influential people like Bannon say.

I don't necessarily think Twitter should have banned him, but it's not clear to me that censorship by social media companies is a "new" problem in terms of media censorship. Historically speaking, the only people who had a wide audience were people selected by newspaper/radio/TV companies, so censorship has been built into the media from the beginning. Obviously plenty of left-wing views are suppressed on Fox News for example.

I mean you're right, but that's been one of the great things about a free internet. It has opened the doors for people to access information without having to go through corporate media. I would like to keep it that way, and I think when lefties are green-lighting censorship of right-wingers on social media they are being naive to not expect it to boomerang around and kick them in the ass.

My bigger concerns here are pro-censorship sentiment taking the form of Congressional action, and whether anti-trust regulators (who arguably were asleep at the wheel while Facebook and Google were on acquisition sprees) can provide a counterweight to overconsolidated social media in the future.

Here we are 100% on the same page. A lot of the problem comes from these tech corporations being allowed to get so big.

 

[Einherjar86]

C'mon...

No joke, there's a meme going around on Facebook saying "before you tell your families you won't see them at Thanksgiving, realize that this may be the last holiday you have."

Do you seriously deny this kind of bullshit is circulating?

EDIT: this is it

There we pretty much agree, though I would say the neoliberals are a major part of the problem as well.

I mean, I don't see a huge difference here. Reagan was a neoliberal. Since Reagan, neoliberalism has been the norm. The democrats are a center-left party that implicitly condones center-right policy.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

What counts as “the slightest research” in your book? Because I have a feeling it’s not actually all that convincing.

Reading the details of the individual alleged plots. In the kidnapping case, the FBI informant likely helped to lead it, and when questioned he had no details about the specifics or viability of the plot (e.g. it was a bunch of angry dudes ranting in private).

https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo...lot-defense-adam-fox-kaleb-franks/3639980001/

Even some lefty sources will acknowledge this, and certainly the wider trend of the FBI's tactics.

https://jacobinmag.com/2020/10/gretchen-whitmer-kidnapping-fbi-domestic-terrorism

 

[HamburgerBoy]

And the current conspiracy theory is that the Clinton Foundation is responsible for voting irregularities, I'm sure that will get somewhere. I love Trump in a way and appreciate a few things he did (or at least said), but on the whole I can't deny that this has been the most incompetent admin probably in the country's history.

 

[CiG]

No joke, there's a meme going around on Facebook saying "before you tell your families you won't see them at Thanksgiving, realize that this may be the last holiday you have."

Do you seriously deny this kind of bullshit is circulating?

EDIT: this is it

Okay so it's a meme promoting family gatherings not being cancelled? How is this better, worse or any different to people organizing the largest mass protests ever seen in the US (or since X event)? So large they inspired protests in other countries like Australia where police brutality is essentially a non-issue and mere weeks later we started arresting anti-lockdown protesters?

Jim-Bob trying to get his hillbilly MAGA family together for Thanksgiving seems like a drop in the bucket compared to burning a city down during a pandemic. This is such a weirdly uneven outrage from you.

 

[Dak]

No, I meant right-wing.

If there's so many right wing terror plots I'm all ears. Zabu's shares are classic misinformation in the "don't pay attention to the X/Y axis" and "ignore data source" vein.

This takes us back to crimson’s comment—that the proper response to cultural ignorance is information and media literacy. But if some people don’t want to be literate in information sources (i.e. if those aren’t “nice things” for them), then what choice are we left with other than censorship when they continue to insist on sharing memes about the dangers of mask-wearing and promoting large gatherings because “carpe diem” and such?

A few separate things mashed up here:

Information does about jacksquat for changing behavior. Does anyone really think fastfood/junk food is a healthy option? Is anyone ignorant of the benefits of exercise? Yet waistlines continue to grow.

Thinking liberals have the high ground on literacy or cultural is beyond laughable, unless the definition for both of those is "Has read Harry Potter and has seen or would claim to want to see Hamilton".

The left has done no better regarding COVID than the right. NYC shoved covid patients into nursing homes, red states have been rather lax on following mask/distancing recommendations. Trump has his rallies, BLM has their "peaceful protests".They were celebrating in the streets of DC today. Meanwhile, the USSG and the WHO and the CDC can't even get their story or recommendations straight. Trusting the supposed experts on COVID hasn't yielded any benefits. Chalk one up for the cantankerous.

 

[Dak]

In other news, Biden is rumored to be building the greatest bipartisan neocon cabinet/panel of advisors in history. Discharge student debt, stop dropping bombs on brown people, and ACAB? Let's put the guy who made it impossible to discharge student debt and America's Top Cop in the White House, and oh yeah, he's bringing back the Bush/Obama war cabinet. You Hate To See It!

 

[Einherjar86]

Okay so it's a meme promoting family gatherings not being cancelled? How is this better, worse or any different to people organizing the largest mass protests ever seen in the US (or since X event)? So large they inspired protests in other countries like Australia where police brutality is essentially a non-issue and mere weeks later we started arresting anti-lockdown protesters?

Jim-Bob trying to get his hillbilly MAGA family together for Thanksgiving seems like a drop in the bucket compared to burning a city down during a pandemic. This is such a weirdly uneven outrage from you.

Outrage is a bit much.

I feel like it's an expression of precisely what I was describing earlier--information illiteracy and ignorance. And whether it's better or worse or not is beside the point; the point is that it signifies an explicit rejection of scientific recommendations.

At least at the protests you refer to, people wore masks. At Trump rallies, you regularly see people saying that masks are a hoax (absurdity for effect).

If there's so many right wing terror plots I'm all ears. Zabu's shares are classic misinformation in the "don't pay attention to the X/Y axis" and "ignore data source" vein.

Actually, he shared some relevant material. Several noteworthy institutions have studied and documented the rise of right-wing terror groups in the U.S. Or there's this book from an expert in security studies.

A few separate things mashed up here:

Information does about jacksquat for changing behavior. Does anyone really think fastfood/junk food is a healthy option? Is anyone ignorant of the benefits of exercise? Yet waistlines continue to grow.

This isn't an argument that information illiteracy is okay. I'm not saying that being able to navigate media and other information sources will solve all problems; but that isn't an excuse for not pursuing it.

Thinking liberals have the high ground on literacy or cultural is beyond laughable, unless the definition for both of those is "Has read Harry Potter and has seen or would claim to want to see Hamilton".

I think that liberals have more trust for people with information literacy. That's key.

The left has done no better regarding COVID than the right. NYC shoved covid patients into nursing homes, red states have been rather lax on following mask/distancing recommendations. Trump has his rallies, BLM has their "peaceful protests".They were celebrating in the streets of DC today. Meanwhile, the USSG and the WHO and the CDC can't even get their story or recommendations straight. Trusting the supposed experts on COVID hasn't yielded any benefits. Chalk one up for the cantankerous.

This is incredibly difficult to quantify; and it's more than a little unfair seeing as state and local governments had no clear direction from the White House.

Your distrust in the WHO and CDC is a misplaced overreaction. They actually have been proactive on the virus in many respects. That doesn't mean they've done everything right; but if our administration had bothered to trust them instead of appealing to right-wing anti-intellectualism, we might be in a better situation.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

people with information literacy

Yes, those people certified to receive and give information, that wonderful and wise elite from whom we consume all knowledge, blessed be their names.

 

[CiG]

Outrage is a bit much.

Haha fair enough, I could have used a less dramatic word.

I feel like it's an expression of precisely what I was describing earlier--information illiteracy and ignorance. And whether it's better or worse or not is beside the point; the point is that it signifies an explicit rejection of scientific recommendations.

At least at the protests you refer to, people wore masks. At Trump rallies, you regularly see people saying that masks are a hoax (absurdity for effect).

I agree that rhetoric on the right with regards to COVID is more ignorant, but what's a Trump rally compared to the protests and riots? Protests and riots (especially the latter) adds strain at every level, from hospitals due to injuries, arrests made which means more in already crowded cells, service-people having to respond to fires, and so on. It's also a meme to suggest everybody was masked up at those protests and riots, let alone that they had their mask on at all times.

Trumptards potentially infecting each other and spewing ignorance within an echo chamber at a rally is a nothingburger by comparison.

it's more than a little unfair seeing as state and local governments had no clear direction from the White House.

I agree with this, which is also why Biden has promised to bring a top down pandemic plan. Trump was a clusterfuck.

 

[Dak]

Actually, he shared some relevant material. Several noteworthy institutions have studied and documented the rise of right-wing terror groups in the U.S. Or there's this book from an expert in security studies.

There's no data on "left wing terror" for comparison. So, pulling in Sowell's "compared to what", we have nothing besides "islam" to compare to. In reference to X/Y axis, the number of plots and relevant deaths are minuscule. The classification criteria aren't clear. Finally, again, many of the "plots" I'm aware of were specifically fomented and connected with means by FBI agents. Take some white hick who goes on SM and says "fuck the feds", befriend him, encourage him to commit acts of terror, connect him with ostensible means, and then arrest him and claim to be protecting the public from "right wing terror". Much wow, so dangerous, very terror.

This isn't an argument that information illiteracy is okay. I'm not saying that being able to navigate media and other information sources will solve all problems; but that isn't an excuse for not pursuing it.

I think that liberals have more trust for people with information literacy. That's key.

People without a college degree are largely uninformed. People with one are largely misinformed. The latter is more dangerous. It's harder to unlearn than it is to learn.

This is incredibly difficult to quantify; and it's more than a little unfair seeing as state and local governments had no clear direction from the White House.

Your distrust in the WHO and CDC is a misplaced overreaction. They actually have been proactive on the virus in many respects. That doesn't mean they've done everything right; but if our administration had bothered to trust them instead of appealing to right-wing anti-intellectualism, we might be in a better situation.

This is so wrong it's probably not worth it to pursue point by point. The data we have isn't great but it suggests that A. COVID is a nothing-burger if you're not already old/very sick, B. Suggested measures other than extreme isolation do little, C. Extreme isolation leads to more problems/deaths than doing absolutely nothing (unless only isolating that vulnerable group). You didn't notice the MSM shifted from counting deaths to "cases". Imagine if we counted "cases" of the common cold ie a coronavirus, and then only the most rich nations of course had the largest testing capabilities, and we didn't bother adjusting per capita.

People are being psy-opped left and right.

 

[Einherjar86]

I agree that rhetoric on the right with regards to COVID is more ignorant, but what's a Trump rally compared to the protests and riots? Protests and riots (especially the latter) adds strain at every level, from hospitals due to injuries, arrests made which means more in already crowded cells, service-people having to respond to fires, and so on. It's also a meme to suggest everybody was masked up at those protests and riots, let alone that they had their mask on at all times.

Trumptards potentially infecting each other and spewing ignorance within an echo chamber at a rally is a nothingburger by comparison.

For the sake of balance, I'll say that I wouldn't feel comfortable at a protest during this pandemic (and haven't attended one since it began). I do think that people at the protests tended to be more aware that they were putting themselves at risk.

And here's another place where we as a society needed to make difficult decisions; so if the Trump administration had had the balls to mandate no large social gatherings, maybe the protests wouldn't have happened or been as large. A lot of evidence suggests that the protests didn't contribute to coronavirus spread though--likely due to mask wearing and them being outdoors.

I think it's simply an area where conflicting cultural values collide and there's no easy management; but it would have been nice to have a sense of direction from the federal government, rather than merely fueling conservative resistance to medical advice.

There's no data on "left wing terror" for comparison.

I wonder why...

It must be the Cathedral.

People without a college degree are largely uninformed. People with one are largely misinformed. The latter is more dangerous. It's harder to unlearn than it is to learn.

I don't know where to start with this, Dak. The assumption that people who have no college degree haven't learned anything is an egregious misdirection. People with no college degree have learned a lot--from family, community, religion, etc. It can much harder to unlearn folk wisdom than it can whatever someone learns in college.

Saying the latter is "misinformed" is really surprising to hear, and I can't understand your rationale for it. I don't think it's true at all, and I think you're being ridiculous. I also don't understand why they're "more dangerous."

This is so wrong it's probably not worth it to pursue point by point. The data we have isn't great but it suggests that A. COVID is a nothing-burger if you're not already old/very sick, B. Suggested measures other than extreme isolation do little, C. Extreme isolation leads to more problems/deaths than doing absolutely nothing (unless only isolating that vulnerable group). You didn't notice the MSM shifted from counting deaths to "cases". Imagine if we counted "cases" of the common cold ie a coronavirus, and then only the most rich nations of course had the largest testing capabilities, and we didn't bother adjusting per capita.

Mortality rates aren't the point when it comes to COVID, and they never were--although it is more deadly than the flu. The point is that a large percentage of cases require hospitalization; and if that didn't happen, who knows how much higher the mortality rate would be? The common cold doesn't require hospitalization in most cases (in virtually no cases). As hospitalization increases, it places a burden on the entire health care system and decreases the amount of attention other people with potentially life-threatening conditions receive.

This displacement of concern onto case-by-case mortality is a red herring from what health care experts and officials have acknowledged is the real concern: pressure on the health care system.

If that doesn't resonate with you, then sure--we have nothing to debate.

 

[CiG]

For the sake of balance, I'll say that I wouldn't feel comfortable at a protest during this pandemic (and haven't attended one since it began). I do think that people at the protests tended to be more aware that they were putting themselves at risk.

And here's another place where we as a society needed to make difficult decisions; so if the Trump administration had had the balls to mandate no large social gatherings, maybe the protests wouldn't have happened or been as large. A lot of evidence suggests that the protests didn't contribute to coronavirus spread though--likely due to mask wearing and them being outdoors.

I think it's simply an area where conflicting cultural values collide and there's no easy management; but it would have been nice to have a sense of direction from the federal government, rather than merely fueling conservative resistance to medical advice.

Evidence after-the-fact is a bit problematic. If research showed that right-wing skepticism of medical advice didn't contribute to coronavirus spreading, you wouldn't use that to defend it because the act came before the knowledge of the consequences.

I do agree though that the lack of decisive coherent leadership from Trump on lockdowns was a big issue. Even if he went the total opposite way and left the country wide open, at least you'd know where he stands on it and you could act accordingly.

I think the larger point here is that Americans (even ones that take COVID seriously in rhetoric or private life) care more about their freedom to protest than they do the advice of experts and policymakers, and I think it's unfair to pretend like the right are the proponents of gatherings during the pandemic just because the left virtue-signals on the subject, even as they ignore advice and gather in larger numbers than the right (not to mention property destruction, violence etc).

 

[Einherjar86]

Good points, especially your last one. My wife and I have stayed home during the pandemic because we don't want to contribute to spread in any way, all the while sympathizing with those who choose to protest. You're right that it's unfair to accuse right-wing gatherings and absolve left-wing simply because one side likely expresses more concern but doesn't exhibit it.

I think in the long run, the rejection of medical knowledge and information has more devastating effects. So ideally, those who protest know the risk and would follow medical advice once the perceived need for protest passes. If Trump supporters don't accept or believe the risk, then there's no reason to change their behavior in the future. That's getting abstract, but I think it's an important distinction.

 

[Dak]

It must be the Cathedral.

Unironically, yes. Just don't label violence by anyone with left wing political views as "terror" and voila, no leftwing terror. Or, simply don't cover it. This has been the modus operandi since US organized leftwing terror organizations formally disbanded in the 70s and 80s and then the leadership all went and joined the Cathedral. Can't blame them though, that was the smart thing to do. The question is why were they accepted?

I don't know where to start with this, Dak. The assumption that people who have no college degree haven't learned anything is an egregious misdirection. People with no college degree have learned a lot--from family, community, religion, etc. It can much harder to unlearn folk wisdom than it can whatever someone learns in college.

Saying the latter is "misinformed" is really surprising to hear, and I can't understand your rationale for it. I don't think it's true at all, and I think you're being ridiculous. I also don't understand why they're "more dangerous."

Yes, people learn modes of existing in their local communities. When one goes to college, this is a new community, and a new mode of existing is the primary lesson. People don't much remember most of the particulars they study in college. But they do become "educated". They must now behave as one who is "educated" might behave. They might also remember some important factoids learned in college that provide guidance on how someone who is "educated" might behave; what they are supposed to "know". These factoids, if they were ever even true in some objective sense to begin with, are unlikely to be true even 5 years later. This is true both of the factoids and even the things they learned which were directly applicable to their career:

https://fs.blog/2018/03/half-life/
https://hbr.org/2017/05/do-doctors-get-worse-as-they-get-older

So yes, misinformed. Either originally, or simply by the impossibility of staying perpetually up-to-date. The reason I say they are more dangerous, is that Joe Bubba, who has no pretense on being "educated", is unlikely to attempt to impose/enforce things on society For Their Own Good. But among the "educated", the technocratic urge rears its head, and it is supported by the "educated" status.

Mortality rates aren't the point when it comes to COVID, and they never were--although it is more deadly than the flu. The point is that a large percentage of cases require hospitalization; and if that didn't happen, who knows how much higher the mortality rate would be? The common cold doesn't require hospitalization in most cases (in virtually no cases). As hospitalization increases, it places a burden on the entire health care system and decreases the amount of attention other people with potentially life-threatening conditions receive.

This displacement of concern onto case-by-case mortality is a red herring from what health care experts and officials have acknowledged is the real concern: pressure on the health care system.

If that doesn't resonate with you, then sure--we have nothing to debate.

It is more deadly than the flu, but again, the risk is not even remotely distributed evenly. As best one can estimate, very little loss of life in terms of QALYs. The pressure on the HCS was a concern, but that appears to be over once the initial wave came through and picked off the weakest. The focus on COVID also failed to take into consideration the tradeoffs brought about by extreme measures like lockdowns and pseudo-lockdowns. Can we save grandpa for another .5 QALYs with a lockdown? Maybe. Are we going to lose 35 QALYs because Jennifer lost her job, couldn't pay rent, couldn't get human social contact and committed suicide? Maybe. The "educated" didn't seem to take that into consideration once it was clear that lockdowns and travel bans were no longer "racist" but instead recommended as something that "educated" people support.

 

[Dak]

https://americancompass.org/the-commons/the-non-voter/
https://twitter.com/Chris_arnade/status/1325412562536685568?s=20
https://prospect.org/culture/books/to-be-studied-or-pitied-other-America/

Throughout the book there is a noblesse oblige attitude; not the old country club type, but an updated version steeped in well-to-do educated leftist language. Again, that isn’t a bad thing by itself, but here it too often comes with an uncomfortable savior vibe.

Despite this hard work and genuine empathy, the authors can’t break out of their worldview.

This intellectual colonialism from the educated elite strip-mines America of its talent, taking what they want and leaving behind towns filling with death and despair. Lots of Americans want to stop being told they are on the wrong ladder. They want to live in a country that doesn’t insist you have to live like the elites. They want to stop being considered losers for not wanting to shape their life around building a résumé.

They want to be respected for what they believe and what they value, not studied or pitied.

If I had dictatorial technocratic power, I would force every other would-be technocrat, "the educated", to read Chris Arnade's output on loop until they break down and repent.