The quest for impulse responses

[H-evolve]

IRs are causing me nightmares. Perhaps it's just that I don't understand them.

They are sold as "cabinet + mic" simulators, however they are so dependant on the amp that was used to record them,are they not ?

Not only that, from speaker to speaker the tone changes.

Anyway, all that to say that my use of IR is to be able to record silently my main tone that I came up with using my amp and cab. At the moment the IRs of my cab that I tried and bought, are never close from my tone (ENGL Cab). My guess is it's just because they were recorded with other amps (from what I know it's often with 5150 or the like).

I'm starting to think that is I really want to simulate my own tone I'd need to do my own IRs?

 

[FrancescoFiligoi]

You can actually capture IRs that don't take the poweramp into consideration, so they're actually 100% mic + cabinet only.

To do that, you'd need to have a DI box or loadbox in between the amp and the cab, so that then you can calculate the difference between the poweramp signal and the cab/speaker. I get VERY flat IRs like that, and yes it does make a big difference. Some cab packs sold by Fractal Audio are made that way.

 

[H-evolve]

You can actually capture IRs that don't take the poweramp into consideration, so they're actually 100% mic + cabinet only.

To do that, you'd need to have a DI box or loadbox in between the amp and the cab, so that then you can calculate the difference between the poweramp signal and the cab/speaker. I get VERY flat IRs like that, and yes it does make a big difference. Some cab packs sold by Fractal Audio are made that way.

Very Interesting.

What do you use them with? Amp sims or your amp with a loadbox/silent recording device?

I ask because not all amp sim properly integrate the power amp section and for that reason I guess that a very flat IR is not that much more useful.

So I understand that, by sending the sine wave through your amp, recording the signal coming out of the amp (before cab) PLUS recording the cabinet signal with a mic, you basically subtract both signals and theoretically you get the cabinet + mic only? Simple in theory but I wouldn't have the knowledge and gear to do that.

But still, very interesting, thanks!

And by the way, though their process isn't like that, is this what Ownhammer is trying to achieve (flat IR) using neutral power amps and what not?

 

[FrancescoFiligoi]

You can do this with literally any poweramp and it will still provide the flattest result - for example, I could crank my poweramp presence so both the poweramp out and the mic'd signal will have cranked presence, therefore the difference in between them (cab+mic) stays exactly the same all the time. I use my IRs made this way with both ampsims and real amps+loadbox (Suhr Reactive Load).

 

[MrBongo]

describe the difference between mic´d cab recording and IR.
Or better yet, post clips. Maybe we can identify the cause of this.

I also made IRs of my own cab using the "simple method", and they are very close to the mic recording, so it can´t be that difficult (because I´m an idiot)

 

[H-evolve]

describe the difference between mic´d cab recording and IR.
Or better yet, post clips. Maybe we can identify the cause of this.

I also made IRs of my own cab using the "simple method", and they are very close to the mic recording, so it can´t be that difficult (because I´m an idiot)

I assume the question was for me. First off, Sorry, I don't have a clip available right now (I'm at work), but I think my explanation will suffice:

We did some tests, first mic'ing our Dual Rectifier 3 Channel, with a SM57, in front of our Mesa OS (mic placed on cap edge). Keep in mind there is also a Rivera Rockcrusher to turn up the power tubes without exploding our brains out. And everything is reamped from a DI track.

Second, we take the line out of the Rivera Rockcrusher (to which the Dual Rectifier is connected) and send it to the interface. Again the same reamped track. Then we send it to NadIR and load a bunch of Mesa OS IRs that we either purchased or found for free.

First, all the IRs sound very different. Second, none of them sound the same as the real mic'ed version of our own cab. My explanation is that the IRs we have, they were created using a different amp and a different cab. It's never going to sound like our mic'ed tone. I could be wrong, but for me this is the reason why.

Ownhammer IRs are quite "neutral" I think and contrary to Rosen Digital, you can choose what mic you want, and position. So, it's quite easy to select the OwnHammer IR that "should" sound like your cab. And when you do the comparison it doesn't sound the same at all.

I hope all of this explanation helps clarify what I mean when I say that I can never find Impulse that reproduce "my tone". Only way it would work I think is by doing my own IR.

I'm definitely not saying the IRs I have sound bad. All I'm saying is that unless you create your own IR with your own gear, the tone you'll get with a third party IR will never match your own tone that you achieve mic'ing your own gear.

 

[MrBongo]

that doesn´t help a lot, "different" is about the most vague answer you could have given. What exactly are the differences? Is it just brighter, more low-end, lots of mid-frequencies ... or does it have a whole other sound character?

Also keep in mind that guitar speakers are some of the more inconsistent pieces of gear you can get. Buy 4 speakers of the same model within the same order, or shipped within the same 4x12 cab, each one will most likely have its own minor characteristics

 

[H-evolve]

that doesn´t help a lot, "different" is about the most vague answer you could have given. What exactly are the differences? Is it just brighter, more low-end, lots of mid-frequencies ... or does it have a whole other sound character?

Also keep in mind that guitar speakers are some of the more inconsistent pieces of gear you can get. Buy 4 speakers of the same model within the same order, or shipped within the same 4x12 cab, each one will most likely have its own minor characteristics

Well yeah I was vague on purpose... Some IRs on the market, for the same cab, sound darker, some sound brighter. They all have different characteristics.

But, for multiple reasons, including the one you mentioned (speaker to speaker difference), I will never find an IR that has the same tone as my own cab. Because they don't have the same speakers, because they were recorded with whatever amp, etc.

However, now I know that there are, on the market, IRs where the effect of the amp was subtracted from the final IR. I'll try getting my hands on that.

But well, in retrospect, I guess my post was confusing, cause I feel I need to explain too much... :S

 

[henryjarv]

Sorry if I'm asking stupid question now...But why don't you record your own impulse? It's quite easy, and free, with Voxengo Deconvolver.

 

[MrBongo]

when they are just brighter or darker, they might have been recorded with a different Presence setting, or that´s the influence of the poweramp used. Adjusting your settings should work in that case.
Or yeah, record your own with Presence and Depth at zero

 

[H-evolve]

Sorry if I'm asking stupid question now...But why don't you record your own impulse? It's quite easy, and free, with Voxengo Deconvolver.

Haha! not a stupid question at all, I didn't say why. (as I said, my post was probably confusing).

I'm trying to pile up money to get a loadbox so I can silent reocrd (And also just reduce the volume, so the Suhr load isn't for me). I'm trying to decide between the Rivera Rockcrusher and the Fryette Power Station (which is a lot more expensive, but better I think, than the Rivera).

Until then, I don't absolutely have to do my own IR, since I'm not going to use my own amp anyway. I'll just use amp sims.

I was mostly interested in knowing what others do. You know, there could have been someone that would have replied saying "Hey I know a company that sells IRs that are made with multiple amps for the same cab" Or something like that. As a matter of fact, I learned that Fractal Audio have IRs that are completely "amp neutral".

 

[henryjarv]

..Before you buy that loadbox, have you tried to record from FX loop?

Read this, quite interesting:
http://www.robchapman.tv/forum/threads/how-to-use-cabinet-impulses-and-record-in-silence.19545/

 

[henryjarv]

I tried that FX loop thing. And it really works.

Here's a test I recorded:
Horrible tone I know, but that's not the point. No pedals or anything.

First part is amp from FX Send------>keFIR
Second part is amp and real cab+mic

Impulse was recorded by sending that test tone to FX Return.

And amp works in standby mode too (FX Send), so it really is as silent recording as possible.

 

[TRUIE]

If I get it well, you're trying to replicate the sound of your head + cab + mic by recording your head through a loadbox... then using a different IR than your own setup ?
I believe it's not gonna work !
IRs are a snapshot of a setup, so depending on the cab

Also, I don't know the one you use but the loadbox itself can change the tone on the line out.

Like already said, you can
- do your own IR if you want the exact tone of your rig
- try recording the FX send, just to be sure the loadbox is not an issue (even though you won't record the PA stage of your amp)

If you're after a good attenuator / loadbox, you can check the Torpedo Reload too for around the same price as the Fryette.

You can also try the Torpedo WoS III VST : http://www.two-notes.com/en/software/torpedo-wall-of-sound-3/index.html
The VST is free and comes with 1 Marshall cab. I know there are a bunch of ENGL cabs you can try/audition with your own material for free within the plugin itself, and see if there is one that sound close to the one you own. Then, the cool thing is you can change/move the mic placement, so maybe it will help you to get closer.

EDIT : which ENGL cab do you own ?
If it can help, here is the exact list of ENGL cabs available on WoS III plugin :

(from Angl60C to Bengel)
You can then search the cab name here if you need more details : http://store.two-notes.com/

 

[allanqa]

Even cabinets from the same brand and model but different years, can sound different, saying that, commercial IR's are "unique" in some way

But in a V30's voiced IR for example, you can hear the character of V30, considering these are chinese, Mesa or British, I have found it are very close to the real deal

 

[H-evolve]

If I get it well, you're trying to replicate the sound of your head + cab + mic by recording your head through a loadbox... then using a different IR than your own setup ?
I believe it's not gonna work !
IRs are a snapshot of a setup, so depending on the cab

Also, I don't know the one you use but the loadbox itself can change the tone on the line out.

Like already said, you can
- do your own IR if you want the exact tone of your rig
- try recording the FX send, just to be sure the loadbox is not an issue (even though you won't record the PA stage of your amp)

If you're after a good attenuator / loadbox, you can check the Torpedo Reload too for around the same price as the Fryette.

You can also try the Torpedo WoS III VST : http://www.two-notes.com/en/software/torpedo-wall-of-sound-3/index.html
The VST is free and comes with 1 Marshall cab. I know there are a bunch of ENGL cabs you can try/audition with your own material for free within the plugin itself, and see if there is one that sound close to the one you own. Then, the cool thing is you can change/move the mic placement, so maybe it will help you to get closer.

EDIT : which ENGL cab do you own ?
If it can help, here is the exact list of ENGL cabs available on WoS III plugin :

(from Angl60C to Bengel)
You can then search the cab name here if you need more details : http://store.two-notes.com/

Thanks for your answer. Well in the past I have tried the Wall of Sound IRs, but I wasn't no super impressed. That was a very long time ago and my ears, I guess I should give it another shot.

I've got the ENGL XXL cab.

Oh and, can you also use the Torpedo Live as a way of lowering the volume? I was under the impression it was just a silent recording device.

 

[TRUIE]

You're welcome
Keep in mind that the Torpedo stuff is not instant gratification.
It's pretty close as a real world setup, you have to dick around with mic position, try a lot of stuff...etc until finding something that you like.

Just checked, and there's a ENGL XXL cab : http://store.two-notes.com/index.php?id_product=163&controller=product&id_lang=2
You can try it directly from the plugin if you want.
Cool thing is that it's made by Mirador Studio and not Two Notes themselves, so maybe you'll like it more ?
Actually I have a Mesa OS additional cab from this studio which is way better than the stock Two Notes one (that's kind of my go-to cab, the one I use the most).

Pretty sure the Torpedo Live can't act as an attenuator.
But I was speaking about the Torpedo Reload, which is precisely made for this :
http://www.two-notes.com/en/hardware/torpedo-reload/index.html

 

[H-evolve]

You're welcome
Keep in mind that the Torpedo stuff is not instant gratification.
It's pretty close as a real world setup, you have to dick around with mic position, try a lot of stuff...etc until finding something that you like.

Just checked, and there's a ENGL XXL cab : http://store.two-notes.com/index.php?id_product=163&controller=product&id_lang=2
You can try it directly from the plugin if you want.
Cool thing is that it's made by Mirador Studio and not Two Notes themselves, so maybe you'll like it more ?
Actually I have a Mesa OS additional cab from this studio which is way better than the stock Two Notes one (that's kind of my go-to cab, the one I use the most).

Pretty sure the Torpedo Live can't act as an attenuator.
But I was speaking about the Torpedo Reload, which is precisely made for this :
http://www.two-notes.com/en/hardware/torpedo-reload/index.html

Indeed! I mixed up the Live and the Reload. Correct the Reload is close to the Fryette and in the same price range.

Do you work for Two Notes by any chance ??

 

[TRUIE]

No, ahah, I have nothing to win or sell.
Just a happy customer, and since they're french like me I know the brand well from their very beggining