Dominick_7
Member
It had more appeal in the 70's with Rush and other bands no? So says Dream Theater, or specifically Labrie.
The Return of the "How it Happened" post...PP USA XI
- Thread starter Harvester
- Start date
It had more appeal in the 70's with Rush and other bands no? So says Dream Theater, or specifically Labrie.
AirGuitarLoonhouse
Professional Headbanger
Great insight and information!
Also, some good discussion to both sides to the the prog/power equation. It is very evident that the snob factor can go both ways.
I think the greatest factor in this year not selling out was the economy, not the band genre makeup. I know of a few people that could not attend for the simple fact that they didn't have a job and hence the money. It wouldn't have mattered if their favorite band on the planet was playing this past year. Hopefully the eye of the economic storm passes before next years fest.
With that being said, I think the make up of the PP XI roster will be better suited to draw in a down economic climate for a few main reasons:
1. Fewer repeat PP bands. As much as I personally liked the 10th anniversary with the returning stars, I think this eventually hurt in the down economy as I heard the comment, "I've seen those bands before". For the average fan this is common thing we all do every year in our local markets when too many shows happen in a 1-2 month stretch. We evaluate our time and money and then pick the favorite bands we never miss and the bands we haven't had a chance to see yet. We skip the ones we kinda like, but saw a few times already.
2. Headliners that should pull in a large local ATL fan base regardless of the other bands on the roster. There should be a good # of fans in the ATL area that put Kamelot and Hammerfall on their "bands we never miss" list. I think FW was this type of band for the ATL area this past year, but neither Andre Matos or Crimson Glory (or any other band on the roster for that matter) fit this category of pulling a larger ATL / south-east contingent.
Also, some good discussion to both sides to the the prog/power equation. It is very evident that the snob factor can go both ways.
I think the greatest factor in this year not selling out was the economy, not the band genre makeup. I know of a few people that could not attend for the simple fact that they didn't have a job and hence the money. It wouldn't have mattered if their favorite band on the planet was playing this past year. Hopefully the eye of the economic storm passes before next years fest.
With that being said, I think the make up of the PP XI roster will be better suited to draw in a down economic climate for a few main reasons:
1. Fewer repeat PP bands. As much as I personally liked the 10th anniversary with the returning stars, I think this eventually hurt in the down economy as I heard the comment, "I've seen those bands before". For the average fan this is common thing we all do every year in our local markets when too many shows happen in a 1-2 month stretch. We evaluate our time and money and then pick the favorite bands we never miss and the bands we haven't had a chance to see yet. We skip the ones we kinda like, but saw a few times already.
2. Headliners that should pull in a large local ATL fan base regardless of the other bands on the roster. There should be a good # of fans in the ATL area that put Kamelot and Hammerfall on their "bands we never miss" list. I think FW was this type of band for the ATL area this past year, but neither Andre Matos or Crimson Glory (or any other band on the roster for that matter) fit this category of pulling a larger ATL / south-east contingent.
AirGuitarLoonhouse
Professional Headbanger
Definitley agree, but with a few comments.
Overseas yes. US yes, but could be changing. I could be wrong, but I would suspect Dream Theater is selling more tickets, merch, and CDs than the top current power metal band. IMO I don't think Maiden or Priest can be considered the power metal band (not that I think they are power, but anyway...) for comparison as they are in that classic category and pull more on nostalgia.
If you sum the revenue dollars of all relevant touring prog bands vs. power bands in the US, then I would suspect the power genre to be grossing more money in terms of tix, merch, and CDs. This is prog metal's issue. They have DT and then it is a big drop off to the next tier unless you consider bands cross into other genres like an Opeth.
But, it will be interesting to see how much more Dream Theater and ProgNation can bring the prog genre into more homes or even into mainstream music. ProgNation is filling a 4300 seat venue here each year and they just had a CD debut in the top 10. Seven years ago they could only fill about 1/2 the seats in the same venue. They sure are in position to try and keep things rolling and also catapult their genre and some other bands. So have they just peaked or is the peak yet to come? Popular rock/metal is sure due for some type of new movement, could prog metal be it? It certainly will shape Glenn's future roster decisions if more momentum is gained.
Metalmilitia2000
UM's Resident Asshole
Which, Annihilator at PP or Brent turning blue?
I thought this too, ahahahaha
Pellaz
Tigron of Immanion
I think it's this sort of sentiment that kinda proves what I said before. Prog fans are more likely to enjoy a good power band than vice-versa. And why not? Their shows are frequently more energetic and easier to "get into."
I just think that there are simply more powermetal fans out there than prog fans...or as Glenn has put it so succintly before, "power bands put asses in seats."
Now I'm off to see if I won the lottery, so we can get Ayreon, Blind Guardian and Dream Theater for the Showcase.
Prog_Please
Member
Great explanation. However, I am disappointed that the reason Oceans Of Sadness got a spot was simply because Glenn played it the most often. I guess that means for PPUSA XII and on, a Progressive Death / Doom band will only make the bill if Glenn likes it, not because he wants to have a band of that type each year
Oh well, I won't let that small detail ruin my excitement for Oceans Of Sadness at next year's festival!!! (who knows, maybe if the seats are full for their set, he might think twice about booking the sub-genre again)
Oh well, I won't let that small detail ruin my excitement for Oceans Of Sadness at next year's festival!!! (who knows, maybe if the seats are full for their set, he might think twice about booking the sub-genre again)
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
Here is where we part... you're using Dream Theater, a band from the 80s, and comparing them to the Power Metal bands of today. Most would consider Dream Theater the fathers of Prog. So it would seem more sensible to compare them to the fathers of Power, Maiden.
Even if we compare DT to the Power Metal bands of today, rather than to Maiden, I would argue Dream Theater is a statistical outlier... the exception that proves the rule. Trying to base an argument on the popularity of Prog Metal, on the popularity of Dream Theater, will yield deceptive results.
I wouldn't consider Opeth Prog Metal for two reasons. First, by a wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, margin, their best works are their first five albums, not the 70s Prog influenced music they've churned out the last few years. Second, the average person at an Opeth show isn't there because they're a Prog fan.
What band has ProgNation launched?
Zod
Opeth's first album was pretty damn progressive. But put, for example, Opeth as a headliner (this will apply to many other bands) will their fans pay $120 to see them if nobody else on the roster interests them? This is a problem some fests have. They try to have a lot of diversity in hopes of pulling from a large pool, but they end up making a roster that doesn't have enough bands a person enjoys to spend the money to go.
I could have put this in the previous reply, but it deserved it's own post because it's such an awesome question.
Matt Crooks
www.fools-game.com
AirGuitarLoonhouse
Professional Headbanger
True, but DT barely made the 80s and more were in the 90s. Not to mention they have beening peaking whereas one can say Maiden helped lift their genre to new heights around the World Slavery Tour. I only suggested DT may be in a similar position now, but in a much smaller scale.
In reading my post I definitely did not say they launched anyone. Did I? I said, "They sure are in position to try and keep things rolling" and "[in position to] also catapult their genre and some other bands." Perhaps the sentence did read not well. Sorry about that. In position was the key comment there so perhaps this clarifies it.
I only contest and wonder (I'm not saying it WILL happen, merely posing the question that it may) that it can take one band to blaze a bigger trail for the genre. I parallel to what Nirvana did for grunge by putting the genre in the minds and homes of more people (though again I wonder if this could happen anywhere near the same scale in today's widely dispersed music scene with all the sub-genres and different media for exposing bands than just radio/TV). Sure there were other "grunge" bands around, but it took Nirvana to put the genre over the hump. I saw Pearl Jam, Chili Peppers, and Smashing Pumpkins in college in a room of maybe 700 people. Within the next year Nirvana got things noticed beyond just the small in the know scene.
Part of my opinion is also based upon the Portnoy forum. There are plentity of bands that his forum helps get more attention. Again, as part of the original thread discussion of prog vs. power, I just think that DT is in position to bring the prog metal genre to more masses and grow it beyond the populatity of power metal in today's world (not over the history of time).
Sir Exar Kun
Member
Big difference though is that Nirvana had MTV on their side. As soon as Nirvana broke, MTV started regular rotation on anything that remotely resembled them, or anything connected to Seattle (except Queensryche!). Add to that the radio airplay, and the "corporate powers that be" did a fantastic job of mass marketing all these bands straight into their 15 minutes of fame.
Dream Theater, and by proxy the rest of the prog bands that are presumed to be following them along to fame and glory, never had that luxury.
Matt Crooks
www.fools-game.com
I wonder how many new fans (or additional sales) Redemption made from their tour with Dream Theater? As the direct support band for the whole tour (and having a recognizable vocalist) if any band was going to get a bump from DT, it would be Redemption.
AirGuitarLoonhouse
Professional Headbanger
Exactly. No genre will ever be able to do it on the same scale these days unless the corporate bozos pick someone as the golden child. There will be another big popular movement of rock/metal in the next decade. But anyone's guess/hope/opinion is as good as the next. Could even just be a resurgence of an old style.
Great question. I wonder if bands like Redemption, Into Eternity, Opeth feel like the ProgNation helped them any.
I guess revisting the question I got asked about "launching" a band... I don't know if PN launced these bands, but it certainly help raise their notarity - Unexpect, 3, Between the Buried and Me, Big Elf.
Althought they are reasonably popular in their home state of Texas, and around the Southwest, this year it would have to be to an extent Scale the Summit. They turned out to be very popular on the tour, even with the guys in DT. But again they are instrumental so that is something to look at.
Redemption and Into Eternity weren't on either Prog Nation
Minor quibbling aside, Redemption probably got a decent boost. I saw a lot of positive reactions in person and online after that tour for them. I'm guessing that for the majority of fans they picked up, the DT tour moved them from 'I've heard of them but haven't listened to their music' to 'I picked up an album and like it'.
With Into Eternity, I doubt the DT tour made much difference. As the first band, they played to the smallest crowds each night, and I saw quite a few people either not enjoying it, laughing at it, etc. For every new fan they picked up from the DT tour, I bet just as many people heard it and said 'no way.'
For Opeth it was just another gig, probably more for Mikael to do something fun and guaranteed to be financially solid rather than a calculated career move.
From Prog Nation 1, 3 got the biggest boost.
From Prog Nation 2, I'm guessing Scale the Summit got the biggest boost.
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
While that may be true, they benefited from the popularity that Metal still enjoyed at the time. I saw "Pull Me Under" on MTV all the time.
You didn't. I was asking if they did. You made the point that the festival is growing. My question is, how has it helped the scene?
Keep in mind, be it Metal in the 80s, Grunge in the 90s or Hip Hop today, these movements were based on cultural shifts, to which the music was secondary. Prog Metal is more about the art of music. It's about creating something that is inherently self-limiting, based upon its complexity. The society we live in becomes more superfical and more corporate on a daily basis. I just don't see Prog Metal ever gaining a foothold. Death Metal? Power Metal? Something offbeat like a Volbeat, possibly. But Prog?
Zod
Why not prog Zod? I don't think that we'll have many popular high selling bands. I think that the niche is already there, but we'll have outliers. Mastodon is prog, and is one of the best selling and reviewed acts this year in the area of rock/metal.
euleria
the last in line
I'd bet that from ProgNation 2, the Frank Zappa back catalog got by far the biggest boost.
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