Check back with me in a month and I'll let you know. Critical commentary on our CD, released yesterday, is quite positive but frankly that's been the case for the last two CDs and it hasn't translated to as many sales as I'd like. We will see what the DT tour did for us shortly. I do note at least one review said they hadn't heard of us but did pick up the CD after seeing the sticker that mentioned James' involvement, so we clearly are not universally known, even by DT's core audience.
The Return of the "How it Happened" post...PP USA XI
- Thread starter Harvester
- Start date
Check back with me in a month and I'll let you know. Critical commentary on our CD, released yesterday, is quite positive but frankly that's been the case for the last two CDs and it hasn't translated to as many sales as I'd like. We will see what the DT tour did for us shortly. I do note at least one review said they hadn't heard of us but did pick up the CD after seeing the sticker that mentioned James' involvement, so we clearly are not universally known, even by DT's core audience.
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
It's like anything else, the higher you raise the bar, the fewer people you appeal to. This isn't just true of music, it's true of all things in life; red wine, films, cigars, literature, art, food, etc. The more depth, the more detail, the more refinement you add to anything, the less appeal it has to a mass audience. Even within Prog Metal, why is it that Symphony X has a larger audience than Zero Hour, or that Circus Maximus appeals to more people than Spiral Architect (<-rhetorical question).
Mastodon did not make their bones as a Prog act. They introduced some Prog tendencies on this new disc. And Mastodon is successful because they have a machine behind them. They have had a video on almost every episode of the HBB, have been on at least one Ozzfest, etc. Their appeal is to a demographic that you'll never see at a Pagan's Mind show.
I appreciate the desire Prog Metal fans have to try and claim bands like Opeth and Mastodon as their own, in an attempt to demonstrate that Prog has some market viability. But laying claim to these bands is tantamount to grasping at straws. These bands aren't popular because of their Prog tendencies, their popular in spite of them.
Zod
AirGuitarLoonhouse
Professional Headbanger
Also, look at several of the bands getting booked on Gigantour: Nevermore, DT, SymX, Lacuna, Opeth, to name a few.
To get "more popular" with the common fan, I don't believe the fact that being about the art of music will hurt. The average fan will look for generic characteristics such as melody, heaviness, how different and cool it sounds, do my friends like it.
Also, in some of your culture examples, music works with or leads the culture shift not after it. Having been the perfect age and demographics for the grunge in the 90s, I believe the music lead that one. I watched a good portion of the 30k college campus start watching movies, wearing clothes, trimming their hair, etc after grunge became the "in" thing not as a secondary byproduct.
dcowboys311
Member
I think it really depends on what you mean by prog, though. I agree that you won't be hearing a Spheric Universe Experience track on the radio anytime soon, but many bands that have prog tendencies are catching on and having a large fanbase. They just aren't traditional prog metal bands.
Mastodon has had prog influences ever since the first album. Same with Opeth. Prog is getting big in metalcore too, with bands like Protest the Hero, BTBAM, After the Burial, Misery Signals, etc. Metallica is taking Gojira with them on tour right now, and the Gojira headlining stop here the other night easily had 500 people show up. Tool is HUGE. The Fall of Troy brings in large numbers every night and they definitely have progressive influences. Everybody knows about Coheed and Cambria and The Mars Volta. So while "normal" prog metal won't be catching on any time soon, progressive music is much larger than power metal, and could lead to new fans in the near future.
Mastodon has had prog influences ever since the first album. Same with Opeth. Prog is getting big in metalcore too, with bands like Protest the Hero, BTBAM, After the Burial, Misery Signals, etc. Metallica is taking Gojira with them on tour right now, and the Gojira headlining stop here the other night easily had 500 people show up. Tool is HUGE. The Fall of Troy brings in large numbers every night and they definitely have progressive influences. Everybody knows about Coheed and Cambria and The Mars Volta. So while "normal" prog metal won't be catching on any time soon, progressive music is much larger than power metal, and could lead to new fans in the near future.
I think Mastodon has been prog from the start. This album just more clearly hits on King Crimson. I also think its what set them apart from other acts within their base.
I don't consider anything such as 'my own' in these genre terms. Dream Theater is the only band like Dream Theater to sell as well as they do (or even close by probably 20-30k copies in the U.S.). No argument there. However, I believe that Yes, early-Genesis, King Crimson, and Rush are no more different different from each other than Mastodon and Dream Theater and Opeth are different from each other.
p.s. Name one Dream Theater-styled progmetal band that tours as much as, or more, than Dream Theater. I'm just saying.
p.p.s. I realize that ProgPower USA is still largely DreamTheaterProg-HelloweenPower.
I don't consider anything such as 'my own' in these genre terms. Dream Theater is the only band like Dream Theater to sell as well as they do (or even close by probably 20-30k copies in the U.S.). No argument there. However, I believe that Yes, early-Genesis, King Crimson, and Rush are no more different different from each other than Mastodon and Dream Theater and Opeth are different from each other.
p.s. Name one Dream Theater-styled progmetal band that tours as much as, or more, than Dream Theater. I'm just saying.
p.p.s. I realize that ProgPower USA is still largely DreamTheaterProg-HelloweenPower.
Prog_Please
Member
Ummm, bad analogy. The reason people go for beer over wine, etc is because its cheaper. Prog metal isn't more expensive than any other band.
While your point here is 100% valid (I would even argue that bands like Opeth have lost a few fans over the years due to becoming more "proggy"), its quite a stretch to translate what was said about Opeth possibly having prog influences to "claiming them as their own."
Finally, as far as which band has gained from the prog nation tour, I personally bought the album by 3 after I heard them. I also bought a Zappa plays Zappa album as well. While I dislike Scale The Summit, everyone around me at the concert were raving about the band and how well their performance was.
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
Prog_Please
Member
I guess we could argue this point all day w/o hard evidence / national survey, but I can assure you its true for kids ages 18-24 (I'd like to think I've been somewhat social during my college life). Price is why myself, my friends, and my friend's friends choose beer over wine, hole in the wall bbq place over the high end stake house, and posters over paintings. If we were offered wine, fine dining and paintings at low prices as well, of course we'd go for that option.
Dolamite S. Biffle
Biffliest Person Ever
Or they prefer the taste? Or they prefer the alochol content in less liquid? And some beer can be very classy. I have bought a few of those 750ml corked beer bottles and they were almost like drinking wine.
AeonicSlumber
srs
- Aug 14, 2008
- 4,893
- 0
- 36
Throughout this thread, there have been so many random assertions with no backing. You claim Opeth isn't prog because their "best" albums were their first 5? LoL, as if that's a competent excuse dude. You can't possibly lay down that highly subjective reasoning as a serious argument.
I think Opeth's last 5 albums are their best, which are more progressive than the first bunch, therefore they are prog metal.
And Mastodon has ALWAYS been lumped in as a progressive, post metal whatever sort of band. In fact, do you not remember the Dream Theater comparison controversy from several years ago where some journalist compared DT to Mastodon asking how Mastodon was able to write cool songs but DT was strictly a "prog snob" band, and the dude basically laughed and made fun of the DT guys? That was a pretty big controversy on the interwebs.
Ultimately, after doing alot of thinking on this subject, I've come to the conclusion that there are two big problems with this thread. One, the majority of you, including Glenn, seem to define "prog metal" as 5 guys (bass, guitar, drums, keyboard, vocals) who play epic, majestic, oddly timed, slightly quirky, Rush-meets-Judas Priest-meets-Metallica sort of stuff. In my opinion, that's a load of BS fellas. Opeth's biggest influence is a British band called Comus, a prog rock band that doesn't sound anything like Rush. Not every prog band will sound like Rush/DT. If you do think that Rush/DT are the fathers of prog (which I think is a ridiculous idea), then yes, the idea of "prog drawing less fans than power" can hold true since there simply aren't many bands that have graduated from the DT school of things, and the majority of which who have are quite young. Do you not see why this comparison is unfair?
Between The Buried and Me, Porcupine Tree, Opeth The Mars Volta, Coheed And Cambria, et al are all progressive bands and they all outdraw Hammerfall and Blind Guardian by the buttload. This is the other problem. You cannot look at a genre and claim it is innately more popular than another just on the nature of the genre. There will ALWAYS be bands that outdraw eachother. Glenn brought up Fates Warning alot in this thread, as if to ask why they didn't sell out the show. The fact is, Fates Warning hasn't had a product out since 2004. That's FIVE years of no promotion, no label backing, nothing. I don't care WHO you are, a band cannot go 5 years in the dark like that and expect to sell out a show and get everyone hyped up. In Hammerfall's case, it's the exact opposite. They haven't toured in 4 years and the numbers for their last tour were abysmal. Had they stuck it out and done a few tours, I'd agree they would have been able to sell out the fest, however I don't think so right now. The band is losing its buzz and its relevancy in the US and I suspect Europe as well, which is their bread and butter.
dcowboys311
Member
I wouldn't say that most people define "prog metal" as simply DT worship, but most DO realize the fact that that sort of music is what this festival is geared towards when it comes to prog. As much as I'd like to see some prog-death, etc on this festival, it's just not what the festival is targeted at. Nothing wrong with that.
AeonicSlumber
srs
- Aug 14, 2008
- 4,893
- 0
- 36
I think that Glenn's booking of non DT-esque progressive bands, such as Amorphis and Orphaned Land show that he isn't ignorant. But he also needs to cater to his loyal base.
No, I think the better question, is why we don't have a Power Nation tour?
Because power metal bands can headline in the U.S.?
Iced Earth, Helloween/Gamma Ray, Sonata Arctica, Dragonforce.
AeonicSlumber
srs
- Aug 14, 2008
- 4,893
- 0
- 36
I'm not talking about prog death man. I'm talking about progressive music in general. The Mars Volta for example is progressive, as well as Fair To Midland, without sounding anything like DT. And be that as it may, that the festival accepts DT esque bands, it doesn't make it right. Not all of the bands ProgPower Europe books come from the school of DT's side of things, because the majority of people (including everyone here I am sure by the way) commonly associate prog with more than just *those* kinds of bands. And guess what: I'm not saying those bands are bad either. Hell, I love a good bunch of them. What I am saying, is you can't only say well, here's Circus Maximus, Pagan's Mind, Fates Warning, Orphaned Land, etc etc and none of them bring in as many fans as Hammerfall or Helloween, or Stratovarius, so therefore power metal must be more popular! Do you not see how futile this kind of argument is? All of the prog bands listed are fairly young, with 4 or 5 CDs out at the most, and there's obviously more to prog than just those bands.
AeonicSlumber
srs
- Aug 14, 2008
- 4,893
- 0
- 36
All of the bands on the progressive nation tours can "headline." Most of which have. Guess what: BTBAM, Opeth, Three, and ZPZ either match or outdraw all of those bands.
AeonicSlumber
srs
- Aug 14, 2008
- 4,893
- 0
- 36
Oh man, I totally agree. Nowhere did I claim ignorance anywhere, but in the context of this debate, I just think people aren't looking outside of the box.
Its quite clear that 'prog' is much bigger than power when you extend prog in all its various forms. That should be obvious. But none of the bands in the Dream Theater style approach Dream Theater numbers in terms of sales, and very very few can manage to headline a tour and have it be successful. Whereas you have a number of power metal bands that can headline a tour and have it be successful.
AeonicSlumber
srs
- Aug 14, 2008
- 4,893
- 0
- 36
I just explained that. The bands in the DT style approach are mostly younger than DT (they would have to be! Duh!
). That is why this argument is so futile. You are pitting bands with 4-5 albums and possibly no touring experience, who are on boutique labels to bands with 20 years of hard touring experience and 8-10 albums.
Prog_Please
Member
True, doesn't make sense, and true. However, I still think the the deciding factor on most things during college is price.
(I think you just worded the second question incorrectly. If you preferred the alcohol content in liquid, that would suggest you want a greater percent alcohol, which is indicative of wine, not beer. I think you meant the opposite in your statement?)
Similar threads
