The Songwriting Thread

[Leper_/-\ffinity]

Well, most people that visit this forum are fairly smart, and some are musicians, and right now Im in a very talkative yet frustrated mood, because I just got done trying to come up with a few riffs for a song, and Ive been trying to fit something in this song forever, and nothing has come out of it for about two weeks of daily trying to "force" it. So I just wanted to start this thread for all of the musicians who write their own material, just to talk about songwriting in general, and what seems to work for all of you. Well, let me start this off with a few comments and questions. I play progressive death metal, kind of in the vain of EoS, Moontower, Opeth, with many prog metal influences such as Nightingale, Pain of Salvation, Dream Theater, and also lots of older prog and rock influences like Camel, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and others. For this song I have been working on, I have it all planned out, and mostly all the riffs written, but now I thought I just needed a few riffs to link it all, and I am actually contemplating starting the song on a clean section (which I wanted to lead up to with a few heavy riffs). So Ill start by asking the question: Have you guys ever successfully "perservered" through a long time of not being able to come up with something to go into a song, or is this never going to come up with good music, because it's so unnaturally forced?? Also, if Dag or Dan would post, and maybe throw in a few ideas/comments, it would be a pleasure to read, because of how much I respect you guys as musicians.

 

[The Grand Design]

Yeah I find it hard to force myself into coming up with a good riff. And most of the time when I make up a riff thats above average, after a couple times of playing it, it sounds boring.

 

[Leper_/-\ffinity]

Uhmmmm ALso, this thread I thought could liven up this board a little more, mainly because I find it interesting to hear how others come up with material.

Yeah, I have that problem also Design, but then I realize that the only reason its fun to play your favorite bands' songs on guitar, is because you know how great it sounds with the full band, so that discourages a lot of people, but I think I have kind of realized that, and know that some of my kinda boring stuff will sound good with drums, bass, vocals etc.

 

[Akronaes]

Usually when I write I hear my own material so damn much I think its absolute shit. A few of my friends, one of them also being a musician, have told me that some of my work is really really good.

I'm not trying to brag, but bring up a moral: don't throw anything away until you get a second opinion.. listening to the same riff over and over and over and over can really kill it for you.. but that doesn't make it a bad riff.. keep a hold of it, maybe you'll end up using it.

 

[Colonial Boy]

I have a serious problem linking passges together. I hate just strumming an e chord and then starting something else cos I want it to flow but it drives me mad sometimes. I also seem to get massively influenced by what i'm listening to so one minute i'm creating a gentle relaxing song and then I hate it and want to create a brutal album etc..

 

[Joyful Sorrow]

Sometimes it helps me to do something "unexpected" on the guitar ... most time I play I always end up with the same chords or chord progression. That is the point where you might want to try to break the "routine" ... it sometimes helps for me ... but the best riffs and songs came out of nowhere

ideas need time to grow ... so I like to play around with them or collect them on tape and listen to them a few weeks later .. and when they still kick my ass then they are it ! so don't throw everything away that doesnt kick ass at once ... take the time (cool song from Dream Theater )

 

[iAMtheblackwizards]

Another thing that sucks is the situation im stuck in right now, where you have one riff that you know is awesome (in my case 2), and cant link them to anything else to do them justice.

 

[Cerebus]

I usually can't up with a riff fit in with the one before it by just playing.. I usually hum the melody or something. Something that fits in then follows naturally and I try to make the best out of that on the guitar.

 

[Leper_/-\ffinity]

I usually can't up with a riff fit in with the one before it by just playing.. I usually hum the melody or something. Something that fits in then follows naturally and I try to make the best out of that on the guitar.

Yeah, that's what I try to do, but it seems whenever I try to do that, there is always a riff by one of my favorite bands that I automatically put there, and I can't help but rip it off.

 

[Leper_/-\ffinity]

Well, Ive been getting some good stuff put together lately, and one thing that helped, was the fact that I opened up a chord dictionary, and fucked around with some of the chords in there, and I found some really awesome chords.

 

[The Grand Design]

Yeah knowing unique chords can help a lot. But yeah make sure the second opinion you get is from a positive metal fan not a person trying to be "true".

I remember the vocalist for my old band would ridicule everything I made up and called it cheesy or crap or whatever. He would always say mean shit about my guitaring etc etc and then one day he decided that I shouldn't be in the band anymore even though I was the one that had invited him in. But since I got kicked out, the band hasn't done much of anything, they barely practice anymore and my other friends who are in the band say that the vocalist is very bossy etc.

The funny thing is, the guy who always made me feel like a shit guitarist, can't play very well at all whereas I can play a lot of songs by In Flames and stuff like that. Dan's music is good inspiration but I always try to make sure I'm taking influence from the band but not emulating their style of music. Sometimes you will find yourself emulating that band (because you love their sound so much) but it's important to try to make something that sounds original. This isn't easy and it amazes me when I hear stuff like Crimson II and I think to myself "shit, all those riffs sound awesome, and they are original, I wish I could write riffs like that".

 

[Akronaes]

But yeah make sure the second opinion you get is from a positive metal fan not a person trying to be "true".

I'm sick and tired of all this "tr00" bullshit flying around. Make what you think sounds good... not what is "tr00" or what is "heavy" or any of that machismo bullshit.

 

[L0bster]

I write a lot of material, and, as well as riffquality, I'm very interested in a good arrangement/structure. Dan and EoS really mastered that bit! Even on Crimson, a 40 minute song, the structure is almost perfect, giving the perfect flow. I know many who can write just as good riffs, but when it comes to creating the structure for one whole song, many fail. And also, there are no real limits in structuring, like Opeth for example, they have their symphonic structure, with almost no re-useing of riffs, while Dan tends to use every riff several times, but change the context a little in someway to keep it interesting

 

[Leper_/-\ffinity]

Yeah, see that's the thing, I go for more of a symphonic structure, and sometimes I succeed, but sometimes I fail miserably.

 

[AmirH]

Yeah, see that's the thing, I go for more of a symphonic structure, and sometimes I succeed, but sometimes I fail miserably.

Oh man, I TOTALLY know how you feel. I've been writing too lately and been having a similar problem. I come up with all these riffs, but then once I'm recording I just start doing my own thing and before I know it the structure is a complete fucking mess and nearly impossible to layer bass or vocals on top. For me a big part of the problem is focusing and playing what I write instead of just jamming. I also have a tendency to try to sneak acoustic passages in that simply don't mix well with the metal. For me, it's all about discipline rather then musical wankery.

Hey, anyone have tips for writing solos? Everytime I try it just sounds jazzy, which isn't always bad but I need to learn how to just write a solo that fits the mood of the song.

 

[L0bster]

I kind of mix structure-styles. I sometimes use the symphonicstyle, but I tell you, it's harder than it seems. You can't just compile some good riffs into a riff fest with a drumfill or outringin chord inbetween every part, which is quite obvious.

But take a look at "the drapery falls" by Opeth. It is _completely_ pieced together, but it's done nicely. LIke for example the break between the simple deathmetal riff and the "waking up to your sound again" part near the end, that's quite brilliant I tell you.

But the structure sometimes depends on what kind of riffage you write, some riff types really won't fit into a symphonic structure, but will work perfect in a kickass 5minute death metal song.

 

[The Grand Design]

Yeah I find putting riffs together and making them flow well is kinda difficult.

 

[FrostGiant]

Just put the song aside for a week and come back to it. In my limited experience, if you try your ass of to try to find a bridge, nothing will come. But if you put it aside and then a throw it in after you forgot what you were trying to do and just jam over the top of it you'll find something that works. I rarely work on one part of a song more than 30 minutes or so at a time cuz after that you tend to be stuck into a singular mind.

But working on one single song over a long period of time is not really a problem IMO as long as you take breaks from that song and work on some new stuff. Like someone already posted, you're shit will become really boring really fast simply cuz you hear it hundreds of times. Nobody can keep their interest that long. Just archive it and come back later and I'll bet you'll find something that works.

 

[Leper_/-\ffinity]

I have a question about writing concept albums. When you have a concept, should you write the music first, or the lyrics?? Ive always leaned more towards writing the actual music first, but then with concept albums, it feels kinda hard to write music without the lyrics, and without knowing exactly what the song is going to be about.

 

[FrostGiant]

I wrote a concept album acutally. But I knew what each song was going to be about so I really didn't need lyrics. I just wrote what I thought that song needed to feel like before I had the lyrics. But the idea needs to be there. I think you need to know what emotion you want each song to portray. But concept albums in general are very restricting. You can't just tear off a cool riff cuz it could totally destroy the album. Flow is very important. But I don't think lyrics are necessary to begin with if you know what you want to do. But I feel you do need to have the story line (if you're doing a story concept) so you know what type of songs to write.