Songwriting...

[FRUGiHOYi]

I don't see anything wrong with shredding. A musician should write music that he enjoys and I'm sure John Petrucci enjoys shredding the hell out of his guitar, so more power to him. I also find that stuff interesting to listen to, probably because I'm a guitarist.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I'm a guitarist and I disagree!

 

[affinityband]

Me too, what was it 10 years ago that petrucci had an original playing style.....

 

[Misseriah]

12

 

[Kenneth R.]

12 seems about right and no, I don't hate the band. I rather like them, but I simply cannot stand fanboys insisting that they're currently still innovative and/or progressive. While I'm at it, as great as Porcupine Tree is, I must say I find a lot of statements about them on this forum to be excessive in fanboy-dom and unsupportable.

But back to songwriting, its clearly the singular strongest force behind good music, flame me if you must. It can be associated with the factor of 'composition' in physical artforms. No matter the medium or technical proficiency with the tools available, the ultimate deciding factor (and the attribute which in my opinion divides the masters from the apprentices) is the invisible manner in which all of these things are arranged. Composition. Songwriting. Doesn't matter if you've got one brush, ten thousand or none at all, if you can effectively get what's in your heart onto the canvas and others can clearly feel what you feel, you have mastered the artform.

 

[Stimuli]

but Kenneth, I feel s super strong emotion and connection with DT's music... I feel by stating the fact that DT is not as good - as an objective fact - is incorrect. For example, although I enjoy the album... to me... considering Towers of Avarice as a "masterpiece" is laughable... and you would obviously disagree and question my musical intelligence...

I defenitly agree with you about your opinions regarding songwriting in general. However I feel that having technical proficiency improves songwriting tremendously... its obviously not the be all-end all...but nevertheless, it gives a musician more tools to craft their message...

 

[Stimuli]

Metal is really the only genre that uses shredding as an attractive feature to fans. Why? Anyone can shred if they've played long enough. There's no musicianship to shredding, its basically "Hey look at me, I can play my guitar really, really fast."

i strongly disagree with this statement...i have lots of shred on lots of CD's that are not metal.. including violin shred...shredding can be done with a pretentious air surrounding it... however, to label all fast players cocky and attention-hoggers is simply untrue...and I dont understand how something played fast does not have musicianship...what if you WANT something to sound chaotic, frantic etc. just as an example...

and just to pose another question... why is it that when Allan Holdsworth or Jaco Pastorious wank their nuts off its considered genius but when a rock musician does it its ocnsidered pretentious and a sign of poor musicianship???

 

[Kenneth R.]

Towers of Avarice IS a masterpiece imo. The lyrics are flipping amazing, and the music backs it up perfectly.

Dream Theater are talented musicians. no question. Talented songwriters? Not anymore imo. They've run out of ideas.

My point in general is that it makes no difference how great of tools you've got if you can't figure out how to use them. A master can work with any tool or no tool at all, although obviously being able to choose from many makes the process easier. Still, I find those who can escape the frame of their technical ability and create works with a more significant purpose to be much more enjoyable.

 

[Stimuli]

I would defenitly agree...it all comes down to creativity and inspiration regardless of how many tools you have to craft your music.

I think the subject of Dream Theater is more of a subjective thing though. I just recently saw them live at the Toronto show and it made me have a very high opinion of them...I can understand what your saying though... I tend to judge bands on their most recent material. and octovarium was a bit of a let down... there is some material that really tries to save it but there is some weak shit on there too...

 

[Kerry King]

Your post wasn't too bad (lol). OK, imagine that metal bands, instead of using the electric guitar, used violins and violas. Now imagine that you're getting into this music, and it's getting dramatic and engrossing, but suddenly the guy breaks out into a mentally confusing violin solo. Just wanking the shit out of his violin. Do you think that would sound good? Why is shredding only "good" for the guitar? Because shredding is slightely more tolerable with the guitar. Metal is really the only genre that uses shredding as an attractive feature to fans. Why? Anyone can shred if they've played long enough. There's no musicianship to shredding, its basically "Hey look at me, I can play my guitar really, really fast."

I understand where you are coming from. I just find some shredding very tasteful. For example the John Petrucci solo on 'Hollow Years' (Live At Budokan) is one of my favourites. However, his solo on 'In The Name Of God' doesnt appeal to me because I find it out of place and nothing more than 'wankery'. I agree that a lot of shred is unnecessary wank, but I find your criticism of shredding in general to be a lot like the typical criticism of death metal vocals (that I often hear) in general.

I am new to forums in general. But I have tried to convince adament Iron Maiden/Judas Priest/Dream Theater/Queensryche fans to listen to Opeth. But they'd never give it a chance because they are unwilling to acquire a taste for death metal screaming.

In the end, its music and is therefore very objective. However, not all shredding are 'mentally confusing' involving 'wanking the shit out of' their guitars.

Regards,
KFK

 

[MasterOLightning]

Deathspell Omega - Kenose

This is the pinnacle of songwriting. It's just brilliant. Everything is exactly where it should be. Much of good songwriting relies on subtleties, and DsO has perfected the use of keys/effects here. Never out of place, always meaningful. Some of the bass parts are among the best I've ever heard on a metal album. The songs are 16, 11, and 9 minutes and flow as if they could not have been a second shorter or longer. For some reason no one here talks about DsO. They are probably the best metal band in existence right now.

 

[Misseriah]

I understand where you are coming from. I just find some shredding very tasteful. For example the John Petrucci solo on 'Hollow Years' (Live At Budokan) is one of my favourites. However, his solo on 'In The Name Of God' doesnt appeal to me because I find it out of place and nothing more than 'wankery'. I agree that a lot of shred is unnecessary wank, but I find your criticism of shredding in general to be a lot like the typical criticism of death metal vocals (that I often hear) in general.

I am new to forums in general. But I have tried to convince adament Iron Maiden/Judas Priest/Dream Theater/Queensryche fans to listen to Opeth. But they'd never give it a chance because they are unwilling to acquire a taste for death metal screaming.

In the end, its music and is therefore very objective. However, not all shredding are 'mentally confusing' involving 'wanking the shit out of' their guitars.

Regards,
KFK

Some shredding is alright. I never said that fast playing is bad. I'm talking about when someone shredsin nearly EVERY SOLO much like Petrucci. Even on slow songs, he does that shit. When it gets to that point, you've given up on trying to create a nice solo, and you're just trying to fill the song up in between choruses.

 

[Heckelgruber]

I quite like some of JP's hyperactive soloing on many of DTs albums. I kind of think it starts going a bit over the top on parts of Train of Thought, where it stops making sense to me. Same for Octavarium. having said that, just because it doesn't make sense to me doesn't mean it doesn't make sense at all.

For something to seem like it's a great song it definitely needs to make an emotional connection with you as others here have pointed out. I think with shredding there is definitely a line you can cross where a lot of people don't connect with it emotionally any more and only the most hardened proggers are keeping up with you

 

[reidie]

I simply cannot stand fanboys insisting that they're currently still innovative and/or progressive.

DT still not progressive??? Octavarium (the song) is extreamly progressive as too are many of the songs from the album. So DT may not still be releasing albums of the calibre of I&W and awake - and their writing style has not moved in leaps ond bounds since six degrees, but have opeth reallly "progressed" dramatically since Still life?? Mike is still using the same chords as he did back then. Sure there are a few more "soft" songs on the more recent offerings (D&D being treated as a single album). Im sorry but opeth (although writing amazing music) arent exactly re-defining their playing style these days

 

[Kenneth R.]

DT still not progressive??? So DT may not still be releasing albums of the calibre of I&W and awake - and their writing style has not moved in leaps ond bounds since six degrees

you admit it yourself.

8VM and similar records by the band's contemporary clones aren't progressive in the slightest. they're prog. aka stagnate.

 

[vampyrouss]

Im sorry but opeth (although writing amazing music) arent exactly re-defining their playing style these days

I think someone probably did this before, or something similar:

Orchid
Morningrise
MA,YH

Still Life
Blackwater Park
Deliverance & Damnation

Ghost Reveries

They are basically the 3 styles of Opeth. The first 2 being very similar, and MA,YH being the odd one. But I think if it had the same line up as the other 2 albums it would sound a lot more like them anyway, but it marked the end of that atmospheric style, partly due to the recording quality too I imagine.

Next you get those 3/4 albums, which can be seen as the second Opeth sound, the DM style grunts becoming more prominant, and the mellow element taking a greater effect. Also a big step up in production. Each of them are unique, same with the first 3 albums, and yeah, MA,YH was kind of inbetween the sounds I suppose.

But then we have Ghost Reveries, which is almost a new style in itself. The keyboards are obviously a big change, which was almost eased in over the last 2/3 albums to create their 3rd stage.

But I would never confuse songs from SL, BP, or D&D with anything off Ghost Reveries, its totally different, and not just the production. It really is like a new era, and if thats not progression than I don't know what is. We'll have to see if there is a "Ghost Reveries II" next, but somehow I think they will do something different again, even if its just a further experiment with their style.

But, despite all that, in the bigger picture Opeth sounds like Opeth. Always have and always will, as you say they have their chords and quirks that are always present, and I know people who tell me all Opeth songs sound the same. Which I totally do not understand, saying Advent sounds like say The Drapery Falls... :zombie: And thats not hearing live versions either, thats just comparing album tracks...

I guess Opeth progress within their own sound, and if you compare album 8 with album 1 it seems like a huge leap, but since we can see the smoother transition between all of them it seems more like a smooth journey, or a progression.

 

[affinityband]

I Understand what the guy you quoted is saying though. They arent Pushing the Boundaries anymore. They have been doing this sort of thing for quite a while. Sure the structures are more defined than have been from the previous album. But they dont create anything out of the ordinary to what they have done previously.

 

[vampyrouss]

I agree on that too, they are pushing their sound, but not doing much outside of the sound they established. Mainly they are focusing on the melodic and clean side I suppose, it would be nice to see something new done with the growls and distortion!

 

[Kenneth R.]

understandably a band can't reinvent themselves every album (well... Ulver ) but the general idea is at least Opeth isn't writing the same album over and over again like some bands, or sticking to a cliché formula that is safe and popular (new DT)

 

[Kerry King]

I'm happy with what Opeth have had to offer upto now. I dont want them to reinvent themselves too much. However, I can trust Mike won't release something like St. Anger, so I won't let that keep me awake at night.

KFK