The Sum is 0

[Dead Winter]

Bush is doing his job right. He made the military stronger than it ever was when Clinton was in office. Once again, please don't tell me that you think the world would be safer with Saddam in power.

I was in the military during the Clinton administration...or rather, the latter part of it. Although we had been downsized, most people put the blame on Clinton, when in fact, as it was already stated, Bush Sr. started that whole thing.

I'm in the Air Force. The Army is hurting for people so badly that they are begging for people who leave the Air Force to join the Army...when I leave the Air Force, which is a fucking great job, I'm DEFINITELY not going into the Army. I'm getting out of the military altogether, because we're stretched so thin that we're doing things that aren't even our jobs. The Army is looking to the AIR FORCE for convoy security. CONVOY SECURITY!!! That's the Army's job. Bush has completely wrecked his military. Before this whole fucked up war, the AF was a great way of life. Just like a regular corporate job with a little excitement. No wars, everything was fine. We travelled the globe training with our allies all over Europe and Asia...things were never better. There's no one yelling at you in the AF, there's no getting up at 4 in the fucking morning...I get outta bed, scratch my balls, get in the shower, and I'm at work by 730 am. I get off at 430. Yesterday I got a day off because it was my BIRTHDAY...as you can see, the rest of the services don't even consider us a real military...until they're begging for air support, then they're kissing our asses. Anyway, back to my point...

The military is in shambles right now. The Army is considering calling back people who have already separated!!! Do you realize that this is something unheard of? When enlist, you actually enlist for 8 years, but 4 of those are active...the other 4 are only for cases of extreme and dire emergencies, i.e., the country is under attack and everyone else is dead. NO ONE gets called during the last few years you're on inactive reserve, not to be confused with active reserve. Yet, they're thinking about putting this into effect, if they haven't already. What does this have to do with you? This is just one step shy of the draft.

I realize that the people of the world don't really dislike America or American people, unless they are Muslim extremists or people to whom you give a reason to dislike them. But we are tainted by the stigma of Bush, and as long as he's in power, we're going to have problems. People see America, and Bush pops into their mind, just as Clinton did a few years ago. However, that was when Clinton was very popular, and people loved America. The bottom line is this: America's foreign policies MUST change, if we expect to evolve and overcome this huge hurdle set before us.

As for me, I get out next year, will marry my girlfriend, who is Italian, and will spend my remaining years in Italy and Europe. I prefer Europe to America, even though Europe is less convenient, more tumultuous, and more expensive. I just returned from visiting my family in America, and had forgotten all about the stupid laws and bullshit Americans have to put up with. America has this "land of the free" thing going for it, but it's just as free as other countries, and in some cases, less so. Italy has a great system, although the social and economic system is in turmoil. Free college, free medical, free dental, etc...even though gasoline costs about 5$ per gallon. It's a small price to pay for going to university completely funded by the government. Ok, Berlusconi is a stronzo, probably moreso than Bush because when Bush says jump, Berlusconi asks how high. Even with all these problems, Europe is still a better place to live than in America...I can say this because I am American. America's freedoms they hold so dear and beat their chests about so much are quickly eroding away into nothingness.

Stop listening to your friends' and parents' opinions...most likely they're wrong anyway, just judging from the age-old argument, "Clinton killed the military". Clinton did cut funding to the military, but again, Bush Sr. killed off the majority of it. Also, the economy was fucking great with Clinton...how is it with Dubya? It's shit. So, in a nutshell:

We're in a quagmire that we don't know how to get out of...
There are no jobs on the homefront...
Everyone is either being laid off or can't find one...
The military is dying (literally)
People are getting out of the military faster than we can recruit them, and no one wants to be in the military at this time anyway...
The world hates America because of one man...
Bin Ladin is still on the loose...
John Ashcroft is peering into your home right now due to the Patriot Act...
When you go to another country, you can feel their disdain simply because you're American, when 10 years ago, if you visited that country, they'd be giving you backrubs and blowjobs just because you were American.

Where do we stand right now? Fucked, unless someone with some balls tells the Iraqis to start fighting for themselves. There's nothing like training Iraqis to fight for themselves against terrorism, only to have them run away and make you take the brunt of the fighting...some even joined the terrorists out of fear. These are the kind of people you're dealing with in Iraq, and you think it's going to be this flourishing country, when they don't even have the balls or pride to defend themselves? It's time to leave them alone and handle things on the homefront. America will always be the point of contact for world crises, but only if we can restore our credibility.

 

[Oblivious Maximus]

Cryptkeeper: For the sake of, and in the name of, our democracy, please answer this question truthfully. Why do you believe that al Qaeda and Iraq were not enemies?

I don't think AQ and Iraq were enemies partley because of the Gulf War, and because of the Bush family. We beat Iraq in the Gulf war, and Saddam hates us for that, and Bush Sr. was president. On 9/11, we were attacked, and Bush Jr. is president. Saddam hates the US because we beat him in a war and a Bush was in office. We were attacked by people who hates us, and a Bush is in office. I believe that Saddam hates the Bush family, and the terrorists hate the US, and a Bush is in office. That is why I believe that Iraq and Osama were not ememys, because of their hatred for America, and the fact that George W. Bush is the president.

 

[Oblivious Maximus]

Stop listening to your friends' and parents' opinions...most likely they're wrong anyway

I don't listen to their opinions, well I do, but that's not what I base my opinions on. And who are you to tell me that my opinions and the opinions of my friends ans family are wrong?

 

[smylex2]

I don't think AQ and Iraq were enemies partley because of the Gulf War, and because of the Bush family. We beat Iraq in the Gulf war, and Saddam hates us for that, and Bush Sr. was president. On 9/11, we were attacked, and Bush Jr. is president. Saddam hates the US because we beat him in a war and a Bush was in office. We were attacked by people who hates us, and a Bush is in office. I believe that Saddam hates the Bush family, and the terrorists hate the US, and a Bush is in office. That is why I believe that Iraq and Osama were not ememys, because of their hatred for America, and the fact that George W. Bush is the president.

From The 9/11 Commission Report, Final Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States page 59, paragraph 2:

"Bin Ladin was also willing to explore possibilities for cooperation with Iraq, even though Iraq's dictator, Saddam Hussein, had never had an Islamist agenda--save for his opportunistic pose as a defender of the faithful against "Crusaders" during the Gulf War of 1991. Moreover, Bin Ladin had in fact been sponsoring anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan, and sought to attract them into his Islamic Army."

This was just after the arrival of Bin Laden in Sudan. His vision was mirrored by Sudan's Islamist leader, Turabi, who convened meetings labeled "Popular Arab and Islamic Conference" which was represented by Bin Laden's Islamic Army Shura as well as the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), Hammas and Hezbollah. In order to protect his ties with Iraq, Turabi struck an agreement with Bin Laden that Osama would stop supporting anti-Saddam activities, which he did for a time. He continued to aid a group of extremists in Kurdistan, a part of Iraq not in Baghdad's control. In the late 1990's, these extremists suffered major defeats by the Kurds. In 2001, these extremists re-formed with Bin Laden's help as an organization called Ansar al Islam. Indications by then were that the Iraqi regime tolerated and might have helped Ansar al Islam against their common enemy, the Kurds.

Final paragraph on page 61: "With the Sudanese regime acting as intermedary, Bin Ladin himself met with a senior Iraqi intelligence officer in Khartoum in late 1994 or early 1995. Bin Ladin is said to have asked for space to establish training camps, as well as assistance in procuring weapons, but there is no evidence that Iraq responded to this request." (Source: Intelligence reports, interrogations of detainee, May 22, 2003; May 24, 2003. At least one of these reports dates the meeting to 1994, but other evidence indicates the meeting may have occurred in February 1995. Greg interview (June 25, 2004).

Oh, and by the way, Al Qaeda attacked the U.S., its interests and Americans at home and abroad when Clinton was in office. Remember the USS Cole? Remember the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993?

Bin Laden and Al Qaeda hate the U.S., no matter who is in office. Bin Laden loves W. because W. made him a prophet by invading Iraq.

Metu, I'll get back to you on Saturday. I've got too much homework to do right now.

 

[Dead Winter]

I don't listen to their opinions, well I do, but that's not what I base my opinions on. And who are you to tell me that my opinions and the opinions of my friends ans family are wrong?

Are your parents in Iraq? Did they serve there? Have they ever been there? Are they in the military? Let me tell you, the military was completely different just FIVE years ago than it is now. In the span of four years, Bush has completely fucked everything up for the military...the sad part of it is that boosting the military was one of his biggest platforms. Now he's reduced it to what it is today. So if your parents or friends served during the first Bush and Clinton era, and not during Dubya, I can tell you that their opinions of this president are WRONG. The military hasn't seen a quagmire like this since Vietnam.

 

[smylex2]

You're too influenced by the left, Smylex. Try this on for size.

http://heritage.org

The problem with FOX is not that they lie. The problem is that they accuse, then spin.

Gee, could that also be considered "lying?"

They accuse other news sources of being unpatriotic. Then they spin and talk about some stock market numbers as if that had anything to do with the middle class. They consistantly support the president's policies because they know that it will resonate well with the public.

Not particularly well. Too many people know that Fox News Channel is close to being the equivalent of the Weekly World News.

They are just using our patriotism as a tool to foster ratings. FOX news is an enemy of our democracy.

One of many, including those in the Senate that are trying to keep a decision about whether or not to leave "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance and keep the final decision from being exempt from judicial review. We're getting one step closer to fascism.

Iraq was a threat because Saddam was such a devout militant and his sons were even worse. It was a good target because of its location, its potential to influence the broader region, and the fact that the regime was despised by all of Iraq's neighbors. The initial military victory was so easy because there were no chemical or biological weapons and the National Guard threw off their uniforms and melted into the general population.

Iraq was a "threat,"yet he had no weapons of mass destruction? To his own people, Saddam and his sons were a threat...hell, Saddam has been the only one to get Iraq under some kind of control. To the rest of the world? Not likely.

What actually happened was that bin Laden went to the Saudi government and proposed that if they could keep the US out of it, he and al Qaeda would invade Iraq in order to turn it into an Islamic state modeled after Afghanistan. It's not that Saddam did not practice the Q'uran, it's that he didn't enforce the radical Wahhabi version. What made Iraq such a target for al Qaeda is the same thing that made it such a good target for us. Location and opportunity.

Bin Laden went to the Saudi monarchy in 1990 proposing that he summon mujahideen for a jihad to retake Kuwait from Hussein. He was rebuffed and the Saudis joined the U.S.-led coalition. After the Saudis agreed to allow the U.S. armed forces to be based in Saudi Arabia, Bin Laden and other Islamic clerics began publicly denouncing the arrangement. The clerics were exiled from the nation and steps were taken to silence Bin Laden, including taking away his passport. Bin Laden got out of the country because of a dissedent member of the Saudi royal family in April 1991. By 1994, the Saudi government had frozen his assets and revoked his citizenship.

Iraq, from a strategic point of view, is optimally located as a staging point for any other action in the middle east. It's almost direcly in the middle of the region. Add to that the amount of money that could be made from oil if the country could be taken. Estimates, according to CNN, is that the untapped oil reserves would outproduce Saudi Arabia.

Bin Laden was coming from a decade of "holy war" in Afghanistan. He was living and fighting with fanatics from the hills this whole time. He wanted the ideals of the Taliban to thrive and thought that the Saudi government would back him. When he found that they would not, at least officially, he focused on the US.

He also focused against the Saudi Royal family. See above.

Well, accusations have been made, but no solid proof hase been found. The people who did attack our country are dead.

But not the people who planned that attack. Also, see my previous post.

We have to look at the long term solution to make sure that future generations don't have this threat. That's what makes Iraq such a great target. Not Oil. Not Saddam. Location and opportunity.

It's all about the oil. Why else would there be civilians in an unsecured war zone?

 

[smylex2]

Yesterday I got a day off because it was my BIRTHDAY...as you can see, the rest of the services don't even consider us a real military...until they're begging for air support, then they're kissing our asses.

Special liberty. Ah, the good ol' days...

And, yeah, we did consider the USAF to be the "country club" of the services. They always had the best facilities at Kadena Air Base. And the girls were usually pretty good looking, too.

Of course, we didn't have the problem with air support with the 2nd and 3rd Marine Divisions and Force Service Support Groups. The Marines were usually well stocked with support from us in the USN. Of course, we had Bush Sr. and Reagan making sure that we were properly funded and not trying to cut funding at every turn to ensure some stupid fucking tax cuts.

People are getting out of the military faster than we can recruit them, and no one wants to be in the military at this time anyway...

A headache they caused themselves. Because the economy started getting really bad in 2002, the enlistments and re-enlistments went up through the roof - so much so that the U.S. Navy enlistments had to be closed because they were risking being overmanned. I went to see about re-enlisting in February of 2003 and was told by the recruiter that because I had been out for more than 6 years (and this was the only reason), Donald Rumsfeld passed the decison that would not allow me to re-enlist in any of the 4 branches of the military. Now, the numbers of young American men and women dying every month in Iraq is growing exponentially every month; they can't replace them fast enough - a situation that has resulted in our soldiers getting stretched thinner and thinner in numbers because of mismanagement that hasn't been seen since the days of Vietnam (ask anyone from my mother's generation and they'll probably tell you that it's like reliving the 60s again) which is causing people to stay away from the military when the numbers had gone up after 9/11.

The world hates America because of one man...

Guess who that man is? His father was president and now he's president.

Bin Ladin is still on the loose...

Guess who let him get away? Hey, same guy! :Smug:

John Ashcroft is peering into your home right now due to the Patriot Act...

And not necessarily to combat terrorism, either. Why else would Tommy Chong be in jail for selling bongs? It's not like he was selling the weed that people smoked out of them.

 

[Tye]

I actually think that Bin Laden was killed a long time ago. Keeping it quiet and making comments like 'We're closing in on the bad guys' keeps the support going.

 

[smylex2]

I actually think that Bin Laden was killed a long time ago. Keeping it quiet and making comments like 'We're closing in on the bad guys' keeps the support going.

Doesn't really matter much anymore if you read this: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-fg-qaeda26sep26,1,7327609.story

 

[metu]

Well, clearly, I underestimated you, Smylex. Great posts. Thank you for filling the gaps in my bin Laden research. I've got the 9/11 Commission Report, but I haven't had a chance to read it.

Calling the Bush/Fox alliance liars is a problem. What they do is not technically lying. It's far more complicated than that. They imply that the only reason we think that Iraq is not going smoothly is because of the "liberal media," or, to use the bush campaign euphemism, "the filter." They bring in "experts" to use fancy-talk in support of Bush's policies. They report on what's wrong with John Kerry far more than what's right with him. They roll their eyes at the notion of more diplomacy. They talk in a concise, strong, direct, overpowering manner which is meant to mimic our fathers.

This is an art of deception which has evolved beyond lying. This is a new era in tv politics. This is a matter of which sounbytes from which cantidate you air at what time and what preceeds and follows them. It's a whole new ballgame and the Bush/Fox alliance are a whole new kind of coalition.
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Iraq was and is a long term threat. It's not the terrorist ties or the WMDs, both of which were non-existent, it's the location. Babylon really needs to be a base of progress rather than degeneration for the long term peace of the region. This administration should have convinced more people of that.

The problem wasn't the target. The problem was the rush.