The Universe

[Pitiless Wanderer]

This might not be a philosophical question as much as a scientific one, but I think it's appropriate.


One of the laws of thermodynamics states clearly that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed. The big bang theory, the most commonly accepted scientific theory on how the universe developed, states that there was this big mass of matter floating around in space, and it exploded, thus creating the universe.


So, if matter can't be created, but this lump of matter was floating around in space...?


This is just one scientific contradiction of many. The bible also has many contradictions, so I'm not stating one is right or wrong. I'm agnostic.

Anyone have any thoughts on this at all?

 

[ARC150]

I'll start this off with the "easy" answer:

Matter and Time are each characteristics of the other - if this is true, that "lump of matter [that] was floating around in space" has always existed and, as such, was never created.

This is obviously a drastically simplifed, curt (to wit: undefined, unsubstantiated) version of the concept...but before you dismiss it out of hand as arbitrary or logically implosive, try to define (with examples, preferrably) Time without incorporating Matter.

/Not an answer, per se, but a starting point...

 

[proglodite]

*shows restraint*

um... matrix theory anyone?

 

[ARC150]

*shows restraint*

???

:um... matrix theory anyone?

Matrix theory? Are you referring to the mathematical matrix theory or the movie? I don't see how either applies.

 

[proglodite]

Matrix from the movie. The world is merely an illusion, run by some 'architect'; as such anything is possible, whether within or above the laws of physics.

edit: I dialled up the [gasp!] search function, and there has been an intelligent design thread in the past; however one of the key points in this argument was not made:
Microevolution = Fact
Macroevolution = Theory
There is NO evidence for darwin's macroevolution theory, it merely connects the dots in the same way that intelligent design and creation science (and the matrix theory!) does.

Brad

 

[ARC150]

Matrix from the movie. The world is merely an illusion, run by some 'architect'; as such anything is possible, whether within or above the laws of physics.

The movie Matrix does not support Matter as illusory though; and it does not answer (or even approach) the question of how Matter came to exist.

 

[proglodite]

Matter is an illusion in the matrix itself. The question of how it came to exist is deemed redundant by the assumtion that matter is an illusion. Of course, the next question is "How did the illusion come into existance?"

 

[AsModEe]

take it that way: that lump of matter has always existed, because nothing can create itself.

So if that lump of matter has always existed, is it God? Ahah, it would be so fucking great if people have been idolizing a lump of matter all that time. Might as well idolize the dog poop on the street.

 

[speed]

Matter is an illusion in the matrix itself. The question of how it came to exist is deemed redundant by the assumtion that matter is an illusion. Of course, the next question is "How did the illusion come into existance?"

No offense, but I find it ridiculous and hilarious you are using the movie the Matrix to argue against something.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

fuck the matrix. dont be a nerd in this thread.



im one of those people who would ALWAYS say "well, how could it just have 'always' existed if matter cannot be created?" (speaking of the lump of matter)........................weird concept!

 

[Silver Incubus]

Strands of energy vibrating? Then slowing down creating matter?

 

[JoeVice]

So if that lump of matter has always existed, is it God? Ahah, it would be so fucking great if people have been idolizing a lump of matter all that time. Might as well idolize the dog poop on the street.

not knowing any clear cut answer, i tend to lean towards that theory. it answers a lot of unkown questions...particularly the one that led me to believe that there must be some kind of "god", and the one that started this thread...its called the law of conservation of mass, right? thats at least how i remember it from my highschool textbooks. is life then, they eye of god? hehe, this could become some far out stoner philosophy.

 

[proglodite]

fuck the matrix. dont be a nerd in this thread.

Fair call mate. I didn't just take the matrix and run with it, it is an actual theory on how 'life' works. The movie is just common ground, easier to refer to it than explaining from scratch, and as such it gets lumped with the same name.

Brad

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

yea, i was only joking around anyway. no harm done.

 

[Misseriah]

The energy wasn't always energy, but free-drifting dark matter and other basic elements. Scientist believe that this matter is from the last big crunch that happened some 7 trillion years ago. So apparently, after the last universe collapsed, it made a vacuum of energy, converting matter into energy (and anti-matter) this energy became quite compact, compressing ages overlapping eachother until another big bang occur i.e. our universe. That's all scientific heresay. Amount of this theory proved?= 0 %

 

[AsModEe]

kinda hard to prove something that occured 7 trillion years ago, we already have a hard time proving that something happened yesterday.

 

[Misseriah]

oh how insightful that was

 

[Impudent]

I think it's more believable to think that a lump of matter simply existed than an all-powerful being simply existed. As complex as the universe is, I don't understand why people have such a hard time believing it's "just here". I think something like a god would have to be infinitely more complex than the universe itself in order to create the universe, so I don't see how you could believe a god could just exist on it's own but not believe the universe could do the same.

 

[Norsemaiden]

I think it's more believable to think that a lump of matter simply existed than an all-powerful being simply existed. As complex as the universe is, I don't understand why people have such a hard time believing it's "just here". I think something like a god would have to be infinitely more complex than the universe itself in order to create the universe, so I don't see how you could believe a god could just exist on it's own but not believe the universe could do the same.

Exactly! The reason people believe in God in the modern day can't really be about trying to explain things like the universe. It just must be some kind of crutch.

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

I think it's more believable to think that a lump of matter simply existed than an all-powerful being simply existed. As complex as the universe is, I don't understand why people have such a hard time believing it's "just here". I think something like a god would have to be infinitely more complex than the universe itself in order to create the universe, so I don't see how you could believe a god could just exist on it's own but not believe the universe could do the same.

wow
i totally agree with this
this should have been posted on that "who can seriously believe in the bible?" thread